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Post by hapaguy on Dec 2, 2021 13:50:05 GMT -5
Not to beat a dead horse but we really need to up the level of play at the OH2 position (not to mention OH1 for next year). Not to keep ragging on Riley but she only shows up in one category in the Big West stats and that's in the "Kills Per Set" category where she is 17th. I don't know what her hitting % is in conference because she's not in the top 20 in that category and the Big West only lists the top 20 in each category. Overall she hit .155 for the season in a weak conference. If we want to get our program relevant again we need to do better than that. She's the one only because we didn't have anyone else this past season.... With that being said, I hope she drastically improves in the off-season and makes me eat crow......
I think we should be fair when we use statistics. For one thing, if you're listed in the top 20 in a stat it means you in the top 10% of all players. Even that can be misleading because the position played makes a difference depending on the category. It's common sense to leave setters, liberos, and ds out of the hitting %. The two categories that would apply to Wags is hitting % and Kills/set. If you look at hitting %, the first 10 listed are all MB (I didn't have the time to check them all out). I'm not sure, but it looks like there's only one OH2 listed and that's Katie Kennedy at #19. There are a couple of OPP's. As for Kills/set, again, I don't see many OH2's mentioned. I think Utterback is an OPP and is listed after Wags but made the conference first team. Lovett from LB is an OH2 behind Kashauna and she's listed after Wags.
Don't think it's fair to denigrate Wags when the stats used don't support it. Go back and watch the last UCSB game. It wasn't for Riley, the Wahine could have been swept in 3 again. I don't know Riley or her friends/family. I believe in trying to be fair. Oh, and by the way, I do believe that Mia Johnson is a talent and might have started for a lot of other teams, she's just not ready to displace Riley yet.You are completely missing the point of my comment. I never said Riley's not making contributions as you pointed out the UCSB match. What I am saying is if we want our program to be relevant again we need to up our play in certain positions and OH is one of them. As for the OH2 position do you really think hitting .155 for the season is acceptable? Especially in a weak conference like the Big West? I don't. Typically you want your outsides to be hitting over .250 and preferably around .300 ESPECIALLY in a weak conference like the Big West. Yes, Riley does other things to contribute but again, her offensive production is not going to get us back to relevance if she keeps hitting .156....
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Post by Barefoot In Kailua on Dec 2, 2021 13:53:29 GMT -5
Don't mind Hapa. He's the kind of guy that calls the Police when the kids put up a lemonade stand on public property. Lol.
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Post by hapaguy on Dec 2, 2021 14:02:00 GMT -5
Don't mind Hapa. He's the kind of guy that calls the Police when the kids put up a lemonade stand on public property. Lol. Touchรฉ!!! LOL
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2021 14:09:05 GMT -5
Don't mind Hapa. He's the kind of guy that calls the Police when the kids put up a lemonade stand on public property. Lol. Omgosh! ๐๐
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Post by baytree on Dec 2, 2021 14:26:48 GMT -5
I think we should be fair when we use statistics. For one thing, if you're listed in the top 20 in a stat it means you in the top 10% of all players. Even that can be misleading because the position played makes a difference depending on the category. It's common sense to leave setters, liberos, and ds out of the hitting %. The two categories that would apply to Wags is hitting % and Kills/set. If you look at hitting %, the first 10 listed are all MB (I didn't have the time to check them all out). I'm not sure, but it looks like there's only one OH2 listed and that's Katie Kennedy at #19. There are a couple of OPP's. As for Kills/set, again, I don't see many OH2's mentioned. I think Utterback is an OPP and is listed after Wags but made the conference first team. Lovett from LB is an OH2 behind Kashauna and she's listed after Wags.
Don't think it's fair to denigrate Wags when the stats used don't support it. Go back and watch the last UCSB game. It wasn't for Riley, the Wahine could have been swept in 3 again. I don't know Riley or her friends/family. I believe in trying to be fair. Oh, and by the way, I do believe that Mia Johnson is a talent and might have started for a lot of other teams, she's just not ready to displace Riley yet.You are completely missing the point of my comment. I never said Riley's not making contributions as you pointed out the UCSB match. What I am saying is if we want our program to be relevant again we need to up our play in certain positions and OH is one of them. As for the OH2 position do you really think hitting .155 for the season is acceptable? Especially in a weak conference like the Big West? I don't. Typically you want your outsides to be hitting over .250 and preferably around .300 ESPECIALLY in a weak conference like the Big West. Yes, Riley does other things to contribute but again, her offensive production is not going to get us back to relevance if she keeps hitting .156.... In conference, she hit .190. So at least she was improving. That's more important to me than her overall average. I agree, though, that she should at least hit above .200 and really around .220, even with her other contributions. In glancing at her game by game stats (on her bio page), it looks like she usually has a good game, then a bad one. She needs to be more consistent bc the team (esp the setter and coaches) can't wonder if she'll hit .100 or .250
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Post by Cubicle No More ... on Dec 2, 2021 14:57:20 GMT -5
What he is trying to point out is that if she had a hitting percentage of 3 or 350 points she more than likely would been good enough to have made the All-Big West First Team and would push this Hawai'i team to greater heights. Maybe even an undefeated BWC. Yes she may have had a great night against Santa Barbara, but is she doing it on a CONSISTENT level throughout the entire season? Her hitting percentage is a telling story of that answer. Like I said before, if she had a hitting percentage of 400 or 450 she could be an All-American type because it shows that out of every single set she gets, almost half of them will end up in kills.ย MAAAAARYYYYYYYYYYY! Are you referring to Ronnie Wagoner on Hawaiiโs menโs squad? ๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐ In the womenโs collegiate game, strong outsides hit around 27%-30% range. With a good enough sample size of swings and kills that hitting percentage supports consideration for an all-American nod. If she hit 45% as an outside, sheโd be national player of the yearโฆโฆ.. lol, i'm getting a kick out of this discussion too ... some context - i remember back in 2009, even the great megan hodge couldn't pull off these numbers. and that was a npoy and undefeated penn st season, en route to to the national championship (defeating hawaii in the semifinals too) ... hodge hit .371 that year. i do recall there were stretches during that season where her hitting percentage was above .400, and if she had maintained it ... well that would have just been amazing. and consider that an OH hitting .371 on the year is already off-the-charts as it is (and against top flight competition to boot).
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2021 15:03:08 GMT -5
MAAAAARYYYYYYYYYYY! Are you referring to Ronnie Wagoner on Hawaiiโs menโs squad? ๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐๐ In the womenโs collegiate game, strong outsides hit around 27%-30% range. With a good enough sample size of swings and kills that hitting percentage supports consideration for an all-American nod. If she hit 45% as an outside, sheโd be national player of the yearโฆโฆ.. lol, i'm getting a kick out of this discussion too ... some context - i remember back in 2009, even the great megan hodge couldn't pull off these numbers. and that was a npoy and undefeated penn st season, en route to to the national championship (defeating hawaii in the semifinals too) ... hodge hit .371 that year. i do recall there were stretches during that season where her hitting percentage was above .400, and if she had maintained it ... well that would have just been amazing. and consider that an OH hitting .371 on the year is already off-the-charts as it is (and against top flight competition to boot). Exactly! If Wagoner averages around the .450 mark then Karch needs to call her to the national team ASAP! ๐
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Post by Cubicle No More ... on Dec 2, 2021 15:05:50 GMT -5
lol, i'm getting a kick out of this discussion too ... some context - i remember back in 2009, even the great megan hodge couldn't pull off these numbers. and that was a npoy and undefeated penn st season, en route to to the national championship (defeating hawaii in the semifinals too) ... hodge hit .371 that year. i do recall there were stretches during that season where her hitting percentage was above .400, and if she had maintained it ... well that would have just been amazing. and consider that an OH hitting .371 on the year is already off-the-charts as it is (and against top flight competition to boot). Exactly! If Wagoner averages around the .450 mark then Karch needs to call her to the national team ASAP! ๐ eh, i think karch is allergic to players outside the power conferences .... hill was an aberration ... lol
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2021 15:07:35 GMT -5
Exactly! If Wagoner averages around the .450 mark then Karch needs to call her to the national team ASAP! ๐ eh, i think karch is allergic to players outside the power conferences .... hill was an aberration ... lol He took Thompson. But I agree that like Hill, she is also an aberration. He pretty much recruits within the Big 10. ๐
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Post by hapaguy on Dec 2, 2021 17:07:10 GMT -5
You are completely missing the point of my comment. I never said Riley's not making contributions as you pointed out the UCSB match. What I am saying is if we want our program to be relevant again we need to up our play in certain positions and OH is one of them. As for the OH2 position do you really think hitting .155 for the season is acceptable? Especially in a weak conference like the Big West? I don't. Typically you want your outsides to be hitting over .250 and preferably around .300 ESPECIALLY in a weak conference like the Big West. Yes, Riley does other things to contribute but again, her offensive production is not going to get us back to relevance if she keeps hitting .156.... In conference, she hit .190. So at least she was improving. That's more important to me than her overall average. I agree, though, that she should at least hit above .200 and really around .220, even with her other contributions. In glancing at her game by game stats (on her bio page), it looks like she usually has a good game, then a bad one. She needs to be more consistent bc the team (esp the setter and coaches) can't wonder if she'll hit .100 or .250 Yes she did hit .191 in conference so that was a slight improvement from the preseason. Almost all of our preseason matches were against NCAA tournament teams so yes, you would hope that our hitters #'s would improve when we get to conference play considering what a weak conference we play in. My hope for Riley after the season is over is that she works on challenging the block more and not just tipping the ball over the top when she feels the block. She needs to work on hitting high hands, tooling the block, and work more on her roll shot. That tip shot of hers needs to be erased from her repertoire.....
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Post by baytree on Dec 2, 2021 17:32:59 GMT -5
In conference, she hit .190. So at least she was improving. That's more important to me than her overall average. I agree, though, that she should at least hit above .200 and really around .220, even with her other contributions. In glancing at her game by game stats (on her bio page), it looks like she usually has a good game, then a bad one. She needs to be more consistent bc the team (esp the setter and coaches) can't wonder if she'll hit .100 or .250 Yes she did hit .191 in conference so that was a slight improvement from the preseason. Almost all of our preseason matches were against NCAA tournament teams so yes, you would hope that our hitters #'s would improve when we get to conference play considering what a weak conference we play in. My hope for Riley after the season is over is that she works on challenging the block more and not just tipping the ball over the top when she feels the block. She needs to work on hitting high hands, tooling the block, and work more on her roll shot. That tip shot of hers needs to be erased from her repertoire..... I completely agree that she needs to hit high hands and tool the block more. She hit negative in four of the seven preconference matches so my guess is that she hit way below .190 in preconference (too busy to run the numbers). But I agree she needs to do better. IMO even more than hoping her hitting % improves, I want her to be more consistent. Here's the last half of the conference season 10/23/2021 at CSUN .214 10/29/2021 UC Davis .091 10/30/2021 UC Riverside .296 11/05/2021 at Cal St. Fullerton .184 11/06/2021 at Long Beach St. .250 11/12/2021 UC Irvine W .138 11/14/2021 UC San Diego .190 11/19/2021 at CSU Bakersfield .091 11/20/2021 at Cal Poly .242 11/26/2021 CSUN .116 11/27/2021 UC Santa Barbara .219 Maybe someone else can see a pattern there but I can't. SHe hit over .200 vs CSUN, Riverside, LBSU, Cal Poly, and UCSB. She did ok vs UCSD and Fullerton. She hit poorly in the 2nd CSUN match and vs Davis, Irvine, and Bakersfield. If she hit .200 consistently, at least she'd be dependable, esp if she mostly missed by resetting the point instead of erroring.
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Post by hapaguy on Dec 2, 2021 17:47:18 GMT -5
Yes she did hit .191 in conference so that was a slight improvement from the preseason. Almost all of our preseason matches were against NCAA tournament teams so yes, you would hope that our hitters #'s would improve when we get to conference play considering what a weak conference we play in. My hope for Riley after the season is over is that she works on challenging the block more and not just tipping the ball over the top when she feels the block. She needs to work on hitting high hands, tooling the block, and work more on her roll shot. That tip shot of hers needs to be erased from her repertoire..... I completely agree that she needs to hit high hands and tool the block more. She hit negative in four of the seven preconference matches so my guess is that she hit way below .190 in preconference (too busy to run the numbers). But I agree she needs to do better. IMO even more than hoping her hitting % improves, I want her to be more consistent. Here's the last half of the conference season 10/23/2021 at CSUN .214 10/29/2021 UC Davis .091 10/30/2021 UC Riverside .296 11/05/2021 at Cal St. Fullerton .184 11/06/2021 at Long Beach St. .250 11/12/2021 UC Irvine W .138 11/14/2021 UC San Diego .190 11/19/2021 at CSU Bakersfield .091 11/20/2021 at Cal Poly .242 11/26/2021 CSUN .116 11/27/2021 UC Santa Barbara .219 Maybe someone else can see a pattern there but I can't. SHe hit over .200 vs CSUN, Riverside, LBSU, Cal Poly, and UCSB. She did ok vs UCSD and Fullerton. She hit poorly in the 2nd CSUN match and vs Davis, Irvine, and Bakersfield. If she hit .200 consistently, at least she'd be dependable, esp if she mostly missed by resetting the point instead of erroring. I just ran the numbers and she hit -.032 in the preseason. But you hit on something very interesting in that in conference she alternated between a decent match and a poor match. You're right in that she also needs to work on her consistency.....
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Post by Deleted on Dec 2, 2021 17:50:03 GMT -5
I completely agree that she needs to hit high hands and tool the block more. She hit negative in four of the seven preconference matches so my guess is that she hit way below .190 in preconference (too busy to run the numbers). But I agree she needs to do better. IMO even more than hoping her hitting % improves, I want her to be more consistent. Here's the last half of the conference season 10/23/2021 at CSUN .214ย 10/29/2021 UC Davis .091ย 10/30/2021 UC Riverside .296ย 11/05/2021 at Cal St. Fullerton .184ย 11/06/2021 at Long Beach St.ย .250ย 11/12/2021 UC Irvine W .138 11/14/2021 UC San Diegoย .190ย 11/19/2021 at CSU Bakersfieldย .091ย 11/20/2021 at Cal Polyย .242ย 11/26/2021 CSUNย .116ย 11/27/2021 UC Santa Barbara .219 Maybe someone else can see a pattern there but I can't. SHe hit over .200 vs CSUN, Riverside, LBSU, Cal Poly, and UCSB. She did ok vs UCSD and Fullerton. She hit poorly in the 2nd CSUN match and vs Davis, Irvine, and Bakersfield. If she hit .200 consistently, at least she'd be dependable, esp if she mostly missed by resetting the point instead of erroring.ย I just ran the numbers and she hit -.032 in the preseason. But you hit on something very interesting in that in conference she alternated between a decent match and a poor match. You're right in that she also needs to work on her consistency..... A negative averageโฆ..ouch
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Post by kaipono on Dec 2, 2021 19:05:26 GMT -5
# Player SP K K/S E TA Pct A A/S SA SE SA/S RE DIG DIG/S BS BA BLK BLK/S BE BHE 1 Elisaia, Seleisa 107 147 1.37 53 377 .249 982 9.18 30 42 0.28 1 270 2.52 9 90 99.0 0.93 13 21 10 Lang, Kate 79 26 .33 9 77 .221 836 10.58 9 15 0.11 0 215 2.72 3 29 32.0 0.41 10 7 8 DeNecochea,Avalon 112 69 0.62 27 241 .174 1155 10.31 22 18 0.20 1 198 1.77 8 61 69 0.62 4 13 Can some one explain the criteria for All Conf team selection? These are the top teams setters running 5-1s. I am assuming the eyeball test is not used. I believe these stats you pulled are from the overall season stats, and it's more likely that the conference-only stats would be used to determine the All-Conference team selection (as judging BW players from the pre-conference matches matters less than what the coaches see in conference play). Lang averaged 11.54 Assists/Set, 2.93 Digs/Set, 0.37 Kills/Set, 0.11 Aces/Set, 0.44 Blocks/Set, and she led Hawaii to a 0.272 hitting percentage in conference play (2nd in the BW). DeNecochea averaged 10.81 Assists/Set, 0.54 Kills/Set, 0.22 Aces/Set, 1.89 Digs/Set, 0.64 Blocks/Set, and she led Cal Poly to a 0.231 hitting percentage in conference play (3rd in BW). Elisaia averaged 9.16 Assists/Set, 1.32 Kills/Set, 0.32 Aces/Set, 2.60 Digs/Set, 0.96 Blocks/Set, and she led Cal State Bakersfield to a 0.208 hitting percentage in conference play (6th in BW). In comparing Lang and DeNecochea, Lang averages more assists per set, and as a setter she led Hawaii to hitting at a percentage that is a decent margin ahead of Cal Poly in conference. Lang also nearly averages a dig more than DeNecochea in a set, so Lang plays better back row defense. DeNecochea averages more kills per set (though she has a lower hitting percentage than Lang in conference play), more aces per set, and blocks per set, showing a more all-around game. If they selected based on which setter is the best at setting their team and keeping points alive, then that explains why Lang was selected over DeNecochea. On the other hand, Elisaia has the advantage over both setters in kills per set, aces per set, blocks per set, and she puts up the most points per set of any setter in the conference. She also digs more balls than DeNecochea as well. However, she puts up less assists than the both, and her team is hitting at a lower hitting percentage than the other two teams. Perhaps, they selected the two setters based on who set their team up the best in conference play (Lang as UCSB ran a two setter system), and based on who contributed the best all-around game as a setter in conference play (Elisaia who also scored points for her team). I think DeNecochea is in the middle between these two which is why she wasn't honored, and I'm genuinely surprised that she didn't even make honorable mention.
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Post by After Dawn on Dec 2, 2021 19:09:25 GMT -5
# Player SP K K/S E TA Pct A A/S SA SE SA/S RE DIG DIG/S BS BA BLK BLK/S BE BHE 1 Elisaia, Seleisa 107 147 1.37 53 377 .249 982 9.18 30 42 0.28 1 270 2.52 9 90 99.0 0.93 13 21 10 Lang, Kate 79 26 .33 9 77 .221 836 10.58 9 15 0.11 0 215 2.72 3 29 32.0 0.41 10 7 8 DeNecochea,Avalon 112 69 0.62 27 241 .174 1155 10.31 22 18 0.20 1 198 1.77 8 61 69 0.62 4 13 Can some one explain the criteria for All Conf team selection? These are the top teams setters running 5-1s. I am assuming the eyeball test is not used. eyetest and Denocchea don't go together. I think it was the right call leaving her out as a conf selection...
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