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Post by dunninla3 on Sept 6, 2021 20:49:14 GMT -5
across ^ then how would they decide which domestic tours count. What about Brazil's tour?
What you suggest still gives FIVB the power to decide who enters. My suggestion is that USAV create it's own 1-25 rank order, by whatever procedure it deems appropriate, including results AVP and FIVB events combined, with a recency bias. The six teams the USAV designates at any point in time for each FIVB event would enter each FIVB event, and the FIVB than take that list, and place them in Main Draw, Qualifier, or Country Quota according to its existing procedures.
But the FIVB would not determine who the 6 teams are that would represent the USA in each and every FIVB event. That would be like the United Nations determining who the US representative should be for every plenary session based on some ranking of diplomatic achievements over the prior two years.
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Post by guest2 on Sept 6, 2021 21:22:51 GMT -5
across ^ then how would they decide which domestic tours count. What about Brazil's tour? What you suggest still gives FIVB the power to decide who enters. My suggestion is that USAV create it's own 1-25 rank order, by whatever procedure it deems appropriate, including results AVP and FIVB events combined, with a recency bias. The six teams the USAV designates at any point in time for each FIVB event would enter each FIVB event, and the FIVB than take that list, and place them in Main Draw, Qualifier, or Country Quota according to its existing procedures. But the FIVB would not determine who the 6 teams are that would represent the USA in each and every FIVB event. That would be like the United Nations determining who the US representative should be for every plenary session based on some ranking of diplomatic achievements over the prior two years. Its my understanding, perhaps incorrect, that USAV already has the power to do this but chooses not to. I know there was a lawsuit in Germany when that federation did something similar but I am unsure of the details there. I think for TKN the availability of NORCECAs and 1 and 2 stars will be big, but both are symptoms of a stupid system that could have been designed to maintain a status quo. If they are as good as their AVP results would suggest, a topic for a different thread, then why should they have to grovel through a bunch of low level events that are a waste of time from a competitive standpoint. The FIVB points system, heck the whole FIVB event system is a tear down. The quality of players makes it entertaining, but much less so than it would be if it were run with different motivating principles and by people who are more competent |
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Post by VolleyChick on Sept 6, 2021 21:49:09 GMT -5
I'd like to add a different point of view here: To me it is incomprehenspible why the AVP does not have some sort of agreement with the FIVB so that finishes at the AVP also award FIVB points. If they could strike an agreement to count AVP tournaments like NORCECA events or 1* or maybe even 2* events it would extremly lower the entry hurdle for US teams. This could even be capped for the top 8 or 12 team in order to not inflate the points of the US teams too much. Such an agreement would make it possible for young, talented teams to quickly enter FIVB events. Here in Europe the former European tour awarded FIVB points and gave teams a good chance to gain points in order to enter 1* and 2* events. There still exist some zonal events which award points just below 1* events. There also exist some special rules at the European 1* events: Each nation that hosts a 1* event gets at least a qualifier place for the other 1* events in Europe. My point here is that the FIVB obviously is able to grant exceptions, so I assume that some sort of compromise between the FIVB and the AVP would be possible. |
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Post by ajm on Sept 6, 2021 22:07:24 GMT -5
If I remember from the interview with Sean Scott, he said after the Rio Olympics they met with the players (or maybe it was just the top players) and they overwhelmingly wanted USAV to follow the FIVB points system by the book. The only exception was that if a team won world champs they wouldn’t automatically give that team the Olympic spot.
I suppose USAV could change that going forward but they don’t seem inclined to do that and probably couldn’t get anyone to agree on a better system anyway so I’d expect everything to stay the same.
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Post by pelican on Sept 6, 2021 22:23:44 GMT -5
across ^ then how would they decide which domestic tours count. What about Brazil's tour? What you suggest still gives FIVB the power to decide who enters. My suggestion is that USAV create it's own 1-25 rank order, by whatever procedure it deems appropriate, including results AVP and FIVB events combined, with a recency bias. The six teams the USAV designates at any point in time for each FIVB event would enter each FIVB event, and the FIVB than take that list, and place them in Main Draw, Qualifier, or Country Quota according to its existing procedures. But the FIVB would not determine who the 6 teams are that would represent the USA in each and every FIVB event. That would be like the United Nations determining who the US representative should be for every plenary session based on some ranking of diplomatic achievements over the prior two years. Its my understanding, perhaps incorrect, that USAV already has the power to do this but chooses not to. I know there was a lawsuit in Germany when that federation did something similar but I am unsure of the details there. I think for TKN the availability of NORCECAs and 1 and 2 stars will be big, but both are symptoms of a stupid system that could have been designed to maintain a status quo. If they are as good as their AVP results would suggest, a topic for a different thread, then why should they have to grovel through a bunch of low level events that are a waste of time from a competitive standpoint. The FIVB points system, heck the whole FIVB event system is a tear down. The quality of players makes it entertaining, but much less so than it would be if it were run with different motivating principles and by people who are more competent It’s absurd that you can make more money in an AVP Next than a 1* or 2* event, without even factoring in travel expenses. What the FIVB needs is a big 2-stage qualifier like the ones the AVP has for the 1* and 2* events. TKN earned their way into Atlanta and won. Have a country quota for the main draw spots, but let anyone into the qualifiers. Even if you have to claw your way to get one of two or four main draw spots, the cream will rise to the top. |
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Post by tamz on Sept 6, 2021 22:27:18 GMT -5
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Post by tamz on Sept 6, 2021 22:28:56 GMT -5
If I remember from the interview with Sean Scott, he said after the Rio Olympics they met with the players (or maybe it was just the top players) and they overwhelmingly wanted USAV to follow the FIVB points system by the book. The only exception was that if a team won world champs they wouldn’t automatically give that team the Olympic spot. I suppose USAV could change that going forward but they don’t seem inclined to do that and probably couldn’t get anyone to agree on a better system anyway so I’d expect everything to stay the same. Although for a team who wins World Champs during and Olympics qualification period, has there been a case where the team is not part of the top 15 teams in the world or ended up not going to the Olympics? |
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Post by tamz on Sept 6, 2021 22:43:09 GMT -5
Kinda off topic from this thread but since the German lawsuit was mentioned: http://instagram.com/p/CSlsP49s45j So Kim Behrens got unlucky again… Based on her posts, she and Sandra Ittlinger applied for a Wildcard to the European Champs but the German federation never processed their request and on the eve of the event, they even asked if they could voluntarily withdraw themselves as a courtesy to allow Ludwig/Kozuch to play as Ludwig has done so much for the sport and to give her a spot in Vienna. |
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Post by ajm on Sept 7, 2021 8:24:44 GMT -5
If I remember from the interview with Sean Scott, he said after the Rio Olympics they met with the players (or maybe it was just the top players) and they overwhelmingly wanted USAV to follow the FIVB points system by the book. The only exception was that if a team won world champs they wouldn’t automatically give that team the Olympic spot. I suppose USAV could change that going forward but they don’t seem inclined to do that and probably couldn’t get anyone to agree on a better system anyway so I’d expect everything to stay the same. Although for a team who wins World Champs during and Olympics qualification period, has there been a case where the team is not part of the top 15 teams in the world or ended up not going to the Olympics? Probably not, but it’s conceivable that it could happen to a country like the US or Brazil with multiple teams among the top 15. |
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Post by KAP on Sept 7, 2021 9:25:10 GMT -5
The current star system is a train wreck, and the past three years we have seen it go further and further down the drain. The FIVB puts all the responsibility on the promotors, and there is no incentive for them to put on anything other than a 1 or 4 star. Hopefully, after World Tour Finals they will retire the star system and implement this new tier system that we have heard so much about.
I suspect that how things work now is that everyone signs up for these events and applies for a wildcard every time. When the teams at the bottom don’t get a wildcard and it’s time to start booking flights, they drop out. It will be tough for Kloth/Nuss to break through together, but if the FIVB is going to give a wildcard to any team, I think they have a decent shot. Even a qualifier wildcard would help them out a lot, and as “Domestic Tour Champions”, I could see them getting some love.
If I’m TKN, I would sign up for everything, apply for wildcards, and take every opportunity that comes my way. With COVID still being a big factor, it might be worth the risk of flying to a tournament if they are on the reserve list, anticipating that at least a team or two will pull out last minute. Easy to say when it’s not my money on the line, but the alternative is splitting up to play the points game.
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Post by ajm on Sept 7, 2021 10:12:43 GMT -5
One reason I prefer the acrossthepond site over the FIVB site is that it shows all the teams that have withdrawn from each event. So you can see that a bunch of US teams do sign up for each event and then eventually when everyone else signs up you see a long list of withdrawn teams that signed up but just don’t have enough points to get in, including some players I’ve never even heard of. I’m hopeful that whatever new system they use going forward will give more teams an opportunity to compete. But ultimately I think USAV needs to step in here and become more involved in the process. Because at the moment as far as the FIVB is concerned, TKN with zero points isn’t considered any different than two random women off the street who have never played volleyball. |
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Post by rakatac on Sept 8, 2021 5:33:23 GMT -5
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Post by guest2 on Sept 8, 2021 6:00:13 GMT -5
Although for a team who wins World Champs during and Olympics qualification period, has there been a case where the team is not part of the top 15 teams in the world or ended up not going to the Olympics? Probably not, but it’s conceivable that it could happen to a country like the US or Brazil with multiple teams among the top 15. In the last quad, Brazil had 6 women's teams that won full field events. Definitely possible. |
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Post by dunninla3 on Sept 8, 2021 10:19:14 GMT -5
ultimately I think USAV needs to step in here and become more involved in the process. right. The FIVB isn't just a volleyball professional tour. It is also the worldwide governing Federation that determines Olympic games participation standards, including determining entry into Qualification tournaments (essentially all the 3*, 4*, 5* points generating tournaments. If current FIVB policies don't allow new USA teams (who have a winning record against a USA Tokyo qualified team) to enter qualifying tournaments, how can new teams qualify for the Olympics? How is this acceptable to USAV? My point is that Olympic Qualification is determined by FIVB points earned with points gained in FIVB 4* and 5* tournaments with a couple of back door exceptions. If USAV simply follows the current FIVB tournament entry qualification system... which is essentially a combination of seniority and past results points on the tour, new teams can never, ever qualify for the Olympics. Access denied. It is the opposite of survival of the fittest... it is survival of "the fittest teams with a few years of results". As far as the USA Beach Volleyball Olympic representation in Paris, USAV's job is to identify, by whatever means, the USA teams most likely to podium. Failure to intervene in determining which USA teams can play in Qualifying tournaments is the same as allowing the FIVB to choose USA teams for Paris. The USAV needs to withhold it's approval for Olympic Qualifying tournament (FIVB World Tour) entry to teams lower on it's OWN ranking order, and allow FIVB tournament entry according to its own rank order. |
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Post by newbeach on Sept 8, 2021 17:40:10 GMT -5
So we have: April and Alix Claes and Sponcil (assuming they stick together) Kloth and Nuss EmDay and Betsi (assuming they stick together, probably not contenders internationally)
Available blockers: Kolinske Chrissy Jones-Shunderwood (sp?) Cannon? (probably not good enough to contend)
Available defenders: Stockman (has points, has looked bad without Kolinske) Muno (high upside) Hughes (stock down, but has some points)
Wildcards: KWJ - does she continue? Brooke - does she continue? Karissa Cooke - could she be a factor with the right partner?
Torey van Winden - how bad was her injury? how good is she? Megan Kraft - does she try to balance playing internationally and playing at USC?
Who am I missing? I don't think Simo is there yet, although she would be a good pick-up for AVPs and it will be interesting to see where she's at in a year or so. I don't see Callahan or Mewhirter as really in the mix. (Delaney needs to move to defense if she has any chance.)
TVW tore her ACL just like her cousin Katie.  And, I would LOVE to see Katie with the best BIG possible and have a chance. If NUss can do it, Katie can too! I don’t know if playing with TVW was going to be for the whole quad, but with double injuries…maybe? |
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