|
|
Post by BeachbytheBay on Mar 4, 2022 19:58:54 GMT -5
Optics has often affected change. Russia and Eastern bloc countries were (and are Russia/Putin) obsessed with the optics of sport results. I don't need to give a history lesson on this 1960-80s and 2000's with state sponsored doping. Sport was and remains an optic important to Cold War mindset. Pressure from the outside and inside can affect change. I'm old enough to remember a human rights abuse that was present in South Africa from 1910-1993. It wasn't until enough external pressure from outside combined with internal pressure did we see it collapse (check out world divestment (billions pulled out), US college protests and shanty towns on campus(anyone remember), AND IOC banning of all athletes from South Africa participation in any international competition did we see change. I really not reaching here. Russia economy is 1/2 of the State of California's GDP and for the last 60 years Sport and been a Major ....Major propaganda tool of the Soviet Union/and Putin's Russia. While we all in the industrialized world will experience some discomfort, to me punishing Putin's Russia and its sport mechanism is a viable tool to help end this violent abd illegal invasion of a sovereign Ukrainian Nation. ] Again specific to what I said, not allowing Russian athletes to compete (I said the ban on events in Russia and the ban on letting Russian teams play is something that should be done) isn't necessarily going to have the intended effect you might think it will, just like I think Biden pointing out we are taking yachts is silly, and will be seen as silly in the places that matter more than the 'feel good' some might get from it in the US. It's like a guy saying something to 'feel good'. Do you seriously think the Ukrainians hear BIden saying he's gonna take away yachts while they are spilling blood has any positive value in the overall scheme of things? If anything, if I was a Ukrainian I would think 'what the heck did he just say, I don't give a %*$# about some yachts'. Don't be surprised at some point if the Ukrainians feel a sense of abandonment, which I know we are trying to not avoid. My point is the comment about yachts was stupid and unproductive Again, I'm talking about one action, I think Russian athletes should be allowed to play on non-Russian teams and outside of Russia. I do think there is a benefit. let me be specific. Long Beach State (and other schools and other prof sports ) has a Russian tennis player. There is no way in hades I think she should be prevented from playing. She's in a horrible position, and she's not the only one among a lot of athletes in teh US. You think her not being able to play is going to have a postiive effect dude? I think actions like that, at that level, are self-defeating for both us and Russia as a whole, in that they stifle freedom most where we want to demonstrate it. You think sending all the Russian hockey players back home is better than having some of them continue. I disagree. Maybe some of those Russian athletes agree with Putin's action, if so, at least I'd be intereseted to hear why in a setting where they can freely speak. That's what freedom is about. |
|
|
|
Post by akbar on Mar 4, 2022 20:06:19 GMT -5
Optics has often affected change. Russia and Eastern bloc countries were (and are Russia/Putin) obsessed with the optics of sport results. I don't need to give a history lesson on this 1960-80s and 2000's with state sponsored doping. Sport was and remains an optic important to Cold War mindset. Pressure from the outside and inside can affect change. I'm old enough to remember a human rights abuse that was present in South Africa from 1910-1993. It wasn't until enough external pressure from outside combined with internal pressure did we see it collapse (check out world divestment (billions pulled out), US college protests and shanty towns on campus(anyone remember), AND IOC banning of all athletes from South Africa participation in any international competition did we see change. I really not reaching here. Russia economy is 1/2 of the State of California's GDP and for the last 60 years Sport and been a Major ....Major propaganda tool of the Soviet Union/and Putin's Russia. While we all in the industrialized world will experience some discomfort, to me punishing Putin's Russia and its sport mechanism is a viable tool to help end this violent abd illegal invasion of a sovereign Ukrainian Nation. ] Again specific to what I said, not allowing Russian athletes to compete (I said the ban on events in Russia and the ban on letting Russian teams play is something that should be done) isn't necessarily going to have the intended effect you might think it will, just like I think Biden pointing out we are taking yachts is silly, and will be seen as silly in the places that matter more than the 'feel good' some might get from it in the US. It's like a guy saying something to 'feel good'. Do you seriously think the Ukrainians hear BIden saying he's gonna take away yachts while they are spilling blood has any positive value in the overall scheme of things? If anything, if I was a Ukrainian I would think 'what the heck did he just say, I don't give a %*$# about some yachts'. Don't be surprised at some point if the Ukrainians feel a sense of abandonment, which I know we are trying to not avoid. My point is the comment about yachts was stupid and unproductive Again, I'm talking about one action, I think Russian athletes should be allowed to play on non-Russian teams and outside of Russia. I do think there is a benefit. let me be specific. Long Beach State (and other schools and other prof sports ) has a Russian tennis player. There is no way in hades I think she should be prevented from playing. She's in a horrible position, and she's not the only one among a lot of athletes in teh US. You think her not being able to play is going to have a postiive effect dude? I think actions like that, at that level, are self-defeating for both us and Russia as a whole, in that they stifle freedom most where we want to demonstrate it. You think sending all the Russian hockey players back home is better than having some of them continue. I disagree. Maybe some of those Russian athletes agree with Putin's action, if so, at least I'd be intereseted to hear why in a setting where they can freely speak. That's what freedom is about. Russian athletes should not be allowed to "represent" their country in sport event of any kind. Athletes or students who are abroad on their own....have at it. Clearly I misunderstood you. Apologize. Thanks for hanging in there. While I do not think this will be close to the top of a driver of political change it all adds up. |
|
|
|
Post by avid 2.0 on Mar 4, 2022 20:18:49 GMT -5
I'm not so sure that is productive. Russian events, Russian teams, Russian ownership, yes. The athletes are not part of the 'inner circle' actions that make the individual Russian citizen a pariah, should be done with some forethought. The goal isn't make every single person in Russia feel 'ashamed', it's to make them have a productive message to change the leadership or influence the leadership in Russia, and I'm not sure the consequence of banning those athletics is that well thought out. The Russian people will be feeling a sense of desperation, and the goal would not be them to develop the same 'siege' mentality that Russian leadership currently has. Players salaries in every league will take a nose dive as the market is flooded with men and women fleeing Russian clubs (and clubs close to Ukraine) and Euro clubs and leagues will take advantage going on the cheap. this might be slightly off topic (since my knowledge pertains to the women's side) but will it? there aren't that many foreigners in russia. I dont know how many elite men are in russia.... but there are 5-7 elite women (depends on how generous you feel) playing in russia... if anything it might bring the market back to normal.. Smarzek having a 800k (per year)/3 year contract is absurd. (no offense to her)... there are only two clubs itw that can pay that.... and they're going to be paying Egonu and Boskovic next season. |
|
|
|
Post by akbar on Mar 4, 2022 20:32:32 GMT -5
Players salaries in every league will take a nose dive as the market is flooded with men and women fleeing Russian clubs (and clubs close to Ukraine) and Euro clubs and leagues will take advantage going on the cheap. this might be slightly off topic (since my knowledge pertains to the women's side) but will it? there aren't that many foreigners in russia. I dont know how many elite men are in russia.... but there are 5-7 elite women (depends on how generous you feel) playing in russia... if anything it might bring the market back to normal.. Smarzek having a 800k (per year)/3 year contract is absurd. (no offense to her)... there are only two clubs itw that can pay that.... and they're going to be paying Egonu and Boskovic next season. Definitely on the men's side it will. For the women's side, all I can say is the markets are fluid and affect each other with in and internationally. You might see top Russian players flooding the Italian, Polish and Turkish markets and be willing to work for less. On the guys side, Zenit(Russia) and Perugia (Italy) got into a bidding war over Leon and it drove his price up to $1.5 million(back in early Feb) That "driver" is now gone. I can tell you that contracts being offered very recently have taken a nose dive because of the economic climate and much these weeks due to the Russian invasion of Ukraine and uncertain future. |
|
|
|
Post by avid 2.0 on Mar 4, 2022 20:34:00 GMT -5
this might be slightly off topic (since my knowledge pertains to the women's side) but will it? there aren't that many foreigners in russia. I dont know how many elite men are in russia.... but there are 5-7 elite women (depends on how generous you feel) playing in russia... if anything it might bring the market back to normal.. Smarzek having a 800k (per year)/3 year contract is absurd. (no offense to her)... there are only two clubs itw that can pay that.... and they're going to be paying Egonu and Boskovic next season. Definitely on the men's side it will. For the women's side, all I can say is the markets are fluid and affect each other with in and internationally. You might see top Russian players flooding the Italian, Polish and Turkish markets and be willing to work for less. On the guys side, Zenit(Russia) and Perugia (Italy) got into a bidding war over Leon and it drove his price up to $1.5 million(back in early Feb) That "driver" is now gone. I can tell you that contracts being offered very recently have taken a nose dive because of the economic climate and much these weeks due to the Russian invasion of Ukraine and uncertain future. whoops, ignore my ignorance 🤣 |
|
|
|
Post by avid 2.0 on Mar 7, 2022 12:05:24 GMT -5
Tunisia is replacing Russia in the VNL
|
|
|
|
Post by speegs13 on Mar 7, 2022 12:36:35 GMT -5
|
|
|
|
Post by avid 2.0 on Mar 7, 2022 12:54:42 GMT -5
with no crossover... pool placement is going to be really important |
|
|
|
Post by shortlibero on Mar 7, 2022 23:35:09 GMT -5
I agree the whole of Russia needs to embrace change. the key is whatever 'whole of Russia' means I'd rather have athletes from Russia able to speak their mind freely, some voice of Russian people that are able to speak out, is important 15 years of jail. People don't change unless they have to. The massive list of sanctions byt he US and its allies is far far more than just seizing oligarchs yachts and apartments. Seeing the increasing questioning rhetoric from within Russia, the $1million bounty on Putin by one of those oligarch, the 5 day closure of the Russian stock market and the crash of the Ruble.....i can go on.....the pressure is working and increasing. Your flippant comment about our current President sends a red flag about your motives btw. Russia or China, same problem. A chinese table tennis player member of the chinese national team has been sanctioned because he thanked his family BEFORE thanking the PRC in an interview after a win. And... for tennis, where's Peng Shuai by the way ? still missing.
Even bi-nationals can't tell freely what's on their mind: Grebennikov, Pashytskyy (Russia/Ukraine nationalities + EU passport since he's played in Cannes in 2013-2014), because they've got family in Russia still, and contracts. And the russian secret service know how to put pressure on your family, exactly as the chinese one does.
Asking the russians to speak freely is like allowing the FSB to put a bullet in their family's heads.
|
|
|
|
Post by avid 2.0 on Mar 9, 2022 0:15:38 GMT -5
Australia and Qatar have applied to host.
|
|
|
|
Post by basil on Mar 9, 2022 0:44:12 GMT -5
Australia and Qatar have applied to host. Australia doesn't have much of a fan following afaik...does Qatar even have any fans at all? I mean if they're paying for it they'd probably do a good job running it but I wouldn't hold my breath much in terms of fan interest |
|
|
|
Post by avid 2.0 on Mar 9, 2022 0:50:08 GMT -5
Australia and Qatar have applied to host. Australia doesn't have much of a fan following afaik...does Qatar even have any fans at all? I mean if they're paying for it they'd probably do a good job running it but I wouldn't hold my breath much in terms of fan interest taking it from russia to give to qatar would be incredibly ironic. i think australia could be a good host... they're hosting the olympics in '32. Gotta build somewhere. but also idk their covid rules |
|
|
|
Post by basil on Mar 9, 2022 1:01:00 GMT -5
Australia doesn't have much of a fan following afaik...does Qatar even have any fans at all? I mean if they're paying for it they'd probably do a good job running it but I wouldn't hold my breath much in terms of fan interest taking it from russia to give to qatar would be incredibly ironic. i think australia could be a good host... they're hosting the olympics in '32. Gotta build somewhere. but also idk their covid rules from what I know, as long as everyone is vaccinated, shouldnt be an issue |
|
|
|
Post by shortlibero on Mar 10, 2022 0:16:09 GMT -5
Australia doesn't have much of a fan following afaik...does Qatar even have any fans at all? I mean if they're paying for it they'd probably do a good job running it but I wouldn't hold my breath much in terms of fan interest taking it from russia to give to qatar would be incredibly ironic. i think australia could be a good host... they're hosting the olympics in '32. Gotta build somewhere. but also idk their covid rules The day Qatar will want to put money in VB, be sure they'll get everything they want: - they've managed to reach the final in the 2015 World Handball Championships they've hosted with only foreign naturalized players in the national team, they lost vs France - they've managed to host the 2019 World Athletics Championships, corrupting Lamine Diack, one of the most viewed event worlwide with Football (the real one of course) World Cup, the summer Olympics and Tour de France, qatar is known for having naturalized dozens of foreign champions, from either the UK or Kenya (Stephen Cherono world champion in 2003 and 2005 in 3 000m steeple, but known as Saif Saaeed Shaheen at that time)
- they will host the ... Football World Cup this year, corrupting Zidane, Platini (ex UEFA president), and Sepp Blater (ex FIFA president) in the process. - they've put money in FC Barcelona, one of the most important football team ever, via Qatar National Bank and Qatar Airways: #1 jersey sponsor - they've bought the PSG (Basketball, Handball and football club), buying MBappé, Messi and Neymar since the last 4 years.
Qatar people are crazy about sport in general, it's a huge part of their culture, they've hosted world championships in also fencing, swimming, gymnastics, table tennis and cycling. VB is one of their most practised sport, after football and handball. They know how to organize these kind of events and make them accessible to the public worlwide. They can build a team with national team B players from the best countries if they want to, and make it competitive in a short amount of time (as they did with handball in 2015).
Also, it's easier for most of the fans to have the championships in Qatar: it's in the middle of Europe, Africa, and Asia, the US and Australia are way too far from the biggest confederations in terms of fans.
|
|
|
|
Post by shortlibero on Mar 10, 2022 1:24:49 GMT -5
Looking at the FIVB rankings for men:
- in the top 10 countries, 6 are europeans, 3 are from north + south americas, 1 asian
- in the top 20 countries, 9 are europeans (Turkey is in the CEV), 6 are from N+S Americas, 3 from Asia, 1 from Africa (the CAVB)
You get 13 countries over 20 who would be pleased to see the VB World Championships being hosted in Qatar. Qatar is ranked 20, Australia... only 31.
Say what you want, if the "match" was to be decided between those 2 countries, the most logical decision would go to Qatar.
|
|
