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Post by n00b on Apr 27, 2022 6:09:24 GMT -5
To be clear, the context of my comment was in response to somebody stating there’s a point where spending money on the program no longer helps. I don’t think anybody believes Vandy will drop $1 mil/year on a coach, I was simply stating SEC schools aren’t even close to the point where investing more won’t make them better.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2022 7:47:24 GMT -5
Correct. But that limit hasn't been approached. That limit is whatever it would take to get Hambly, Sheffield, Cook or Kiraly as your coach. To be clear, the context of my comment was in response to somebody stating there’s a point where spending money on the program no longer helps. I don’t think anybody believes Vandy will drop $1 mil/year on a coach, I was simply stating SEC schools aren’t even close to the point where investing more won’t make them better. a) No school, whether it be Texas, Florida, or Nebraska, is suddenly going to offer a coach triple what the going rate is for a national top tier coach. That's not a thing. If all your friends have a Honda Civic and you want one too, you don't walk into the local dealership (which had 3 available on the lot) and offer to pay $120k for it. b) But for the sake of discussion, let's say Vandy did it anyway. They offered $1.5M to Louisville's HC and she accepted the offer. Then they get the 3rd best class in the conference and end up in 3rd place, behind Florida and Kentucky. Now consider an alternate world where they instead decided to hire the top assistant at Louisville for $500k. And ... they get the 3rd best class and end up 3rd. How did paying triple for a head coach make them more competitive? If it was as simple as a linear relationship between spending and success, then why not pay $10M for a coach?? At some point, that curve saturates. It necessarily has to. Your point is just essentially that the point of saturation could be farther out than it currently appears to be, and perhaps that is correct. That point can also evolve and shift over time. But no school is going to start out by tripling the going rate. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2022 7:50:57 GMT -5
The last 12 seasons ..... just seems like a very protracted period of utter mediocrity. There would seemingly be no possible reason for Texas to be anything other than an Alabama or Ohio State, in football.
But it's just ... worlds apart, during that period. They haven't hired the right coaches in that timespan. Even Alabama had a period of mediocrity between Gene Stallings and Nick Saban. Is the same thing true for Nebraska and Tennessee?
I don't know.
I think there can be more to the overall situation, than what may appear to be on a surface level glance. Are there too many "distractions" in Austin? Are players treated "too well"? Does it get into their heads and affect their performance. I'm making all of that up. But .... the last 12 seasons seem way too improbable in Austin, for how much else they would seem to have "going for them".
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2022 7:53:56 GMT -5
Within the baseball world, a lot of people believe Corbin is the top paid coach in the country. Private school, so not publicly released, but that would put him above ~$1.5 million. Honestly, the first name that came to mind for me, was DBK (but I know nothing about coaching hunts). Yep. DBK would be great as well. I only appreciate what Fisher has done a little more because (1) the program was in terrible shape when he took over and (2) Pitt isn’t located in a volleyball hotbed like Louisville is. He’s convincing kids from California, Texas and Hawaii to move to frickin PITTSBURGH for four years. With all due respect to both of these coaches: why would they want to take on a new (re)building project?
If you buy an old house, tear it down to the studs, expand the foundation, add-on new construction, and remodel it completely, picking out every color and finish .... and you finally have it the way you want it. You may be inclined to stay there for the rest of your life. It's "your" house now.
So in that respect, like is often true in every sport, they may have better luck going one of the usual two routes: go after an assistant at a top program (who may have limited head experience, but has been around a great head coach for a while) or go after a head coach who has found success at a lower level.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 27, 2022 7:56:26 GMT -5
Regardless, the real main point was how much Vandy would be willing to spend for a competitive program.
My baseline thing is simply that: it doesn't matter at all that they're "last place" in football (revenue) in the SEC, because the SEC TV contract shares that TV revenue equally with every member.
By the time the new program is to be up and running, Vandy will be receiving probably something like $70-80M per year from the SEC, for nothing other than being a member of the SEC. I think that's plenty of money, to match the volleyball budgets of the top schools in the conference.
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Post by nellynel on Apr 27, 2022 8:23:56 GMT -5
They haven't hired the right coaches in that timespan. Even Alabama had a period of mediocrity between Gene Stallings and Nick Saban. Is the same thing true for Nebraska and Tennessee?
I don't know.
I think there can be more to the overall situation, than what may appear to be on a surface level glance. Are there too many "distractions" in Austin? Are players treated "too well"? Does it get into their heads and affect their performance. I'm making all of that up. But .... the last 12 seasons seem way too improbable in Austin, for how much else they would seem to have "going for them".
There are multiple reasons but I would say coaching decisions would be the main reason, some of its missed recruiting (which you could go back to coaching). Distractions at programs I imagine could be a factor but I think it’s minimal. Miami,USC (LA) and Texas (Austin) have all gone through spells of being really good and really mediocre over the last 40 years and the distraction thing isn’t brought up when their good and these cities have be plenty of distractions, never been to Lincoln and they have been mediocre with I assume minimal city distractions. I’ve only been to Nashville once and it seems more like Austin than College Station, Oxford Ms, Tuscaloosa in terms of distractions. But I think the main thing that will drive Vanderbilts success is finding a coach that can bring energy to a new program. People criticized Mack because he wasn’t a great X’s and O’s coach but he was a great salesman (recruiting, energizing the fan base) and that’s a big part of the job too that should not be discounted in any sport. |
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Post by n00b on Apr 27, 2022 8:26:30 GMT -5
Yep. DBK would be great as well. I only appreciate what Fisher has done a little more because (1) the program was in terrible shape when he took over and (2) Pitt isn’t located in a volleyball hotbed like Louisville is. He’s convincing kids from California, Texas and Hawaii to move to frickin PITTSBURGH for four years. With all due respect to both of these coaches: why would they want to take on a new (re)building project? If you buy an old house, tear it down to the studs, expand the foundation, add-on new construction, and remodel it completely, picking out every color and finish .... and you finally have it the way you want it. You may be inclined to stay there for the rest of your life. It's "your" house now. So in that respect, like is often true in every sport, they may have better luck going one of the usual two routes: go after an assistant at a top program (who may have limited head experience, but has been around a great head coach for a while) or go after a head coach who has found success at a lower level.
Dude, in consecutive posts quoting the same thing, you said: 1) why would a school ever offer that much money to a coach, and 2) why would an established coach ever take a building project Well because they could (if they choose) offer them a ton of money. I’m not saying they will, but yeah. To get a coach to leave a program that is currently competing for national championships, where he/she is comfortable to go to a brand new program who won’t play a match for 3 years, you’d have to pay above the ‘typical’ going rate. Ditto for any struggling SEC program. |
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Post by n00b on Apr 27, 2022 8:37:34 GMT -5
But for the sake of discussion, let's say Vandy did it anyway. They offered $1.5M to Louisville's HC and she accepted the offer. Then they get the 3rd best class in the conference and end up in 3rd place, behind Florida and Kentucky. Now consider an alternate world where they instead decided to hire the top assistant at Louisville for $500k. And ... they get the 3rd best class and end up 3rd. How did paying triple for a head coach make them more competitive? If you (or the AD) thinks DBK is overrated and Meske is the reason for Louisville's success, then they absolutely should hire him instead for cheaper. I think that is a WILD take. Obviously, nothing is certain in athletics. You hire the person who is most likely to produce a high level of success, but of course that's never guaranteed. |
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Post by bbg95 on Apr 27, 2022 10:02:12 GMT -5
They haven't hired the right coaches in that timespan. Even Alabama had a period of mediocrity between Gene Stallings and Nick Saban. Is the same thing true for Nebraska and Tennessee?
I don't know.
I think there can be more to the overall situation, than what may appear to be on a surface level glance. Are there too many "distractions" in Austin? Are players treated "too well"? Does it get into their heads and affect their performance. I'm making all of that up. But .... the last 12 seasons seem way too improbable in Austin, for how much else they would seem to have "going for them".
Yes, Nebraska and Tennessee have also not made the right hires. Though in Nebraska's case, there's a lot of conjecture that they may have structural issues (e.g. recruiting area) that may preclude them from ever being a serious national contender ever again. I tend to agree with that. I mean, theoretically, Nick Saban could probably make Nebraska a contender again. But Nick Saban would also never take the Nebraska job, so it's moot point. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2022 7:46:21 GMT -5
Is the same thing true for Nebraska and Tennessee?
I don't know.
I think there can be more to the overall situation, than what may appear to be on a surface level glance. Are there too many "distractions" in Austin? Are players treated "too well"? Does it get into their heads and affect their performance. I'm making all of that up. But .... the last 12 seasons seem way too improbable in Austin, for how much else they would seem to have "going for them".
There are multiple reasons but I would say coaching decisions would be the main reason, some of its missed recruiting (which you could go back to coaching). Distractions at programs I imagine could be a factor but I think it’s minimal. Miami,USC (LA) and Texas (Austin) have all gone through spells of being really good and really mediocre over the last 40 years and the distraction thing isn’t brought up when their good and these cities have be plenty of distractions, never been to Lincoln and they have been mediocre with I assume minimal city distractions. I’ve only been to Nashville once and it seems more like Austin than College Station, Oxford Ms, Tuscaloosa in terms of distractions. But I think the main thing that will drive Vanderbilts success is finding a coach that can bring energy to a new program. People criticized Mack because he wasn’t a great X’s and O’s coach but he was a great salesman (recruiting, energizing the fan base) and that’s a big part of the job too that should not be discounted in any sport. What happened over 2010-2013??  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2022 7:49:29 GMT -5
Is the same thing true for Nebraska and Tennessee?
I don't know.
I think there can be more to the overall situation, than what may appear to be on a surface level glance. Are there too many "distractions" in Austin? Are players treated "too well"? Does it get into their heads and affect their performance. I'm making all of that up. But .... the last 12 seasons seem way too improbable in Austin, for how much else they would seem to have "going for them".
Yes, Nebraska and Tennessee have also not made the right hires. Though in Nebraska's case, there's a lot of conjecture that they may have structural issues (e.g. recruiting area) that may preclude them from ever being a serious national contender ever again. I tend to agree with that. I mean, theoretically, Nick Saban could probably make Nebraska a contender again. But Nick Saban would also never take the Nebraska job, so it's moot point. But for a national program, like Nebraska reasonably still is, their recruiting area is ... national.
Obviously NIL is going a thousand miles per hour right now, but Nebraska still has a lot of donor money to throw around, is building facilities that match national best, and still has an extremely strong desire to be an Alabama/Ohio St in football.
I guess the only "downside" over those others would be the physical distances. Harder, perhaps, for Mom, Dad, siblings to come watch at (every) home games.
Thing for me with Neb and Tenn ... it's been so long since they were relevant, I don't feel like the current generation of high school juniors/seniors even know that they were a big deal in the 90's. So -- barring NIL considerations -- why would a top player from say Arizona, pick Nebraska over really any other major national brand?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2022 7:52:16 GMT -5
If you (or the AD) thinks DBK is overrated and Meske is the reason for Louisville's success, then they absolutely should hire him instead for cheaper. I think that is a WILD take. I wasn't saying that in the slightest. I was saying that if that ($1.5M) is what it would take to pull DBK out of there and start a brand new building project ... then it's guaranteed to not happen. No school is suddenly going to triple the going rate for top tier national coaches. They just won't. I think that's the only, very small, area where we're in disagreement. Otherwise I think we largely agree: Vandy will have plenty of money, regardless of how much football revenue they generate, to spend at the top level of college vball programs. |
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Post by bbg95 on Apr 28, 2022 8:09:06 GMT -5
Yes, Nebraska and Tennessee have also not made the right hires. Though in Nebraska's case, there's a lot of conjecture that they may have structural issues (e.g. recruiting area) that may preclude them from ever being a serious national contender ever again. I tend to agree with that. I mean, theoretically, Nick Saban could probably make Nebraska a contender again. But Nick Saban would also never take the Nebraska job, so it's moot point. But for a national program, like Nebraska reasonably still is, their recruiting area is ... national.
Obviously NIL is going a thousand miles per hour right now, but Nebraska still has a lot of donor money to throw around, is building facilities that match national best, and still has an extremely strong desire to be an Alabama/Ohio St in football.
I guess the only "downside" over those others would be the physical distances. Harder, perhaps, for Mom, Dad, siblings to come watch at (every) home games.
Thing for me with Neb and Tenn ... it's been so long since they were relevant, I don't feel like the current generation of high school juniors/seniors even know that they were a big deal in the 90's. So -- barring NIL considerations -- why would a top player from say Arizona, pick Nebraska over really any other major national brand?
Nebraska really is a special case. They had their great run under Tom Osborne by running a triple option, which almost nobody runs anymore. Also, it's widely believed that Nebraska had a "strength and conditioning" advantage (read: steroids) in that era that they no longer have. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2022 8:15:02 GMT -5
But for a national program, like Nebraska reasonably still is, their recruiting area is ... national.
Obviously NIL is going a thousand miles per hour right now, but Nebraska still has a lot of donor money to throw around, is building facilities that match national best, and still has an extremely strong desire to be an Alabama/Ohio St in football.
I guess the only "downside" over those others would be the physical distances. Harder, perhaps, for Mom, Dad, siblings to come watch at (every) home games.
Thing for me with Neb and Tenn ... it's been so long since they were relevant, I don't feel like the current generation of high school juniors/seniors even know that they were a big deal in the 90's. So -- barring NIL considerations -- why would a top player from say Arizona, pick Nebraska over really any other major national brand?
Nebraska really is a special case. They had their great run under Tom Osborne by running a triple option, which almost nobody runs anymore. Also, it's widely believed that Nebraska had a "strength and conditioning" advantage (read: steroids) in that era that they no longer have. Sure, and wasn't one of their star players a criminal? There are also academic requirements that are no longer possible for them to take advantage of. Etc.
That said, in the hyper evolving new world of college (football/basketball), those with lots of donor/NIL money to throw around could suddenly propel themselves forward.
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Post by nellynel on Apr 28, 2022 8:18:07 GMT -5
There are multiple reasons but I would say coaching decisions would be the main reason, some of its missed recruiting (which you could go back to coaching). Distractions at programs I imagine could be a factor but I think it’s minimal. Miami,USC (LA) and Texas (Austin) have all gone through spells of being really good and really mediocre over the last 40 years and the distraction thing isn’t brought up when their good and these cities have be plenty of distractions, never been to Lincoln and they have been mediocre with I assume minimal city distractions. I’ve only been to Nashville once and it seems more like Austin than College Station, Oxford Ms, Tuscaloosa in terms of distractions. But I think the main thing that will drive Vanderbilts success is finding a coach that can bring energy to a new program. People criticized Mack because he wasn’t a great X’s and O’s coach but he was a great salesman (recruiting, energizing the fan base) and that’s a big part of the job too that should not be discounted in any sport. What happened over 2010-2013?? The biggest issue was a miss on quarterback (my point on recruiting misses) and qb injury. Garret Gilbert was the Gatorade National player of the year and heir apparent (be wary of heir apparents) and just did not pan out, the David Ash had to quit due to concussions which left them with trying to win with Case McCoy (not Colt) at qb when he probably should have been at Tarleton St, not Texas. But to his credit he played as well as he could and did beat OU and has the last win against A&M. |
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