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Post by HandeBallerdın on Jul 18, 2022 16:45:22 GMT -5
Well, based on VNL performances. It will still be Serbia vs Italy. at this point thats my prediction, but Brasil has a habit of stumbling into finals and losing 3-0. |
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Post by kwt on Jul 19, 2022 8:03:09 GMT -5
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Post by basil on Jul 19, 2022 8:43:46 GMT -5
Guidetti is dragging his girls everywhere omg
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Post by HandeBallerdın on Jul 19, 2022 8:50:48 GMT -5
Guidetti is dragging his girls everywhere omg #givezehraandedaabreak |
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Post by CAI BIN MUST GO on Jul 19, 2022 10:56:12 GMT -5
The new ranking system is based on individual match results rather than tournament results. We can't say that each match is of equal sporting importance, that is obviously not true. The old ranking accounted for that by only taking into consideration the final result. In fact this new ranking system does not reward teams for qualifying to the next stage. For example, argentina got +15 points in the Tokyo 2021 qualifiers but -17 points in the actual games. Does that make sense? The old ranking system has exposed teams very quickly too. For example, Serbia in 2019 lost most of their 90 ranking points gained from the 2015 World Cup. Now, I understand there were scheduling problems with ECh, but the reality is they sent a B team which was not good and placed 9th. China in 2021 would be the same story if the old ranking system was used. USA in 2018 to a lesser extent.
With the new ranking system, the most important tournament for mid-teams becomes the VNL, because you are guaranteed 12 (used to be 15) matches with a relatively high rating multiplier. If a team plays like KOR did in the WCH or OG, they'd be eliminated after 5 matches and the damage to their ranking limited (see: China who lost only 25/30 points in Tokyo 2021) I mean the fact that Russia could be qualified to Paris 2024 by ranking (both men and women, but especially the men who are ranked #4) should tell you everything that is wrong with this current system... normally they would get a 0 for the 2022 VNL and 2022 WCH results. FIVB introduced this new ranking system to boost the importance of VNL, not to evaluate the teams more objectively.
edit: forgot to add the following: The olympics is the most important event in volleyball, and even qualifying for it is an accomplishment. Do we really want to leave open the possibility that a borderline team like KOR throws their final group stage game in the WCH to save their ranking points and qualify to the OQTs? Doesn't sound right to me.
Also, what was wrong with the old ranking system, besides teams keeping their points for 4 years?
The problem with 'only' allowing the final result to matter is that not all paths are created equal and there are unbalanced routes. At least with unbalanced pools, the rankings will address that by not penalizing you as many points for losing to good teams as you would have in only taking the final result. I also disagree, it actually makes plenty of sense for Argentina. Why do we care about rewarding them for qualifying to Tokyo through a week CSV pool? I also do think teams should be penalized for not taking the VNL seriously. I don't mind the FIVB making the result of matches matter more. I could be negotiable on the 'weight' of the VNL though. Russia is an extreme outlier and shouldn't measure anything. In the old system Korea gets more points than Russia for simply attending the event. Korea doesn't deserve ANY points for just 'being' in the VNL. Your hypothetical scenario with Korea is really irrelevant. Korea is not making any Olympic Game through International Qualification. It's very very hard to see Korea even winning two games in their pool, so, they won't even need to throw it. And if they get swept enough -- that should probably keep them out anyways by losing the 1st round matches. I think I've already touched on your last question. But to add one more example, the ranking system with the World Cup was also really awful. Teams like Argentina, Korea, Dominican Republic got to get a LOT of quality World Cup points while teams like Italy, Turkey had to miss the World Cup and got literally zero points. That's very dumb. Those second-rate teams got points for beating each other and for beating Cameroon/Kenya while Europe/CEV was 'quota'd' out of the tournament. That is the fault of the qualification system of the world cup and olympics (re: argentina and korea), not the ranking system. They could have one rep. per confederation instead of two and fill the rest in by world ranking. In this new olympic qualification system for example there is almost zero chance for argentina or korea to ever qualify to the olympics (rank top 2 of 8 is an almost impossible task, and they are way way behind in the world rankings and are a long way from the top in their confederation). In reality argentina got the spot because brazil was good enough to qualify through the international qualifiers, and korea got the spot because japan was host and china qualified through international qualifiers (well, and they were better than japan in 2019 anyways)
The above is independent of the ranking system used.
I don't mind penalizing teams for not taking VNL seriously, but I think the penalty for a bad Olympics/World Championship performance should be far far greater in the rating system, and currently it's not designed to be the case. Besides, if you don't make it out of group stage in the olympics, does it really matter if you went 2W/3L or 5L? the medals (maybe 4th place as well) are what matter...
Anyways we'll probably just have to agree to disagree on hypothetical scenario (I don't think there should ever be any incentive for teams to throw because humans are gonna be human) and the merits of the old vs new ranking system.
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Post by basil on Jul 19, 2022 19:38:01 GMT -5
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Post by werka on Jul 19, 2022 22:38:22 GMT -5
Didnt Thompson hit like a 105 2021 VNL
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2022 22:58:45 GMT -5
I woulda thought Miha would have been higher. Also that Egonu swing did not look any harder than her normal swings lol |
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Post by manyshaped on Jul 20, 2022 13:20:27 GMT -5
talking to a coworker today about 'once in a generation' players (albeit different sport) and that got me wondering...what would the roster look like or each position if we listed the best 'once in a generation' players that are actively playing right now? i know who that would be for OPP (well, multiple players), but not so sure about other positions.
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Post by avid 2.0 on Jul 20, 2022 13:21:30 GMT -5
Didnt Thompson hit like a 105 2021 VNL yea i dont think that list is right. JT had a 108 in Calgary I believe. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2022 13:43:03 GMT -5
talking to a coworker today about 'once in a generation' players (albeit different sport) and that got me wondering...what would the roster look like or each position if we listed the best 'once in a generation' players that are actively playing right now? i know who that would be for OPP (well, multiple players), but not so sure about other positions. Gabi for OH and for everyone else ? I’m not sure. There’s a bunch of very very good players at their positions (Zehra, Krob, Poulter, etc) come to mind I’m not sure they are “once in a generation” yet. Egonu, Bošković, and Gabi are really the only 3 of those in my mind. |
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Post by Disc808 on Jul 20, 2022 13:45:24 GMT -5
Surprised there’s no asterisk next to tandara. Lol
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Post by donut on Jul 20, 2022 14:39:41 GMT -5
talking to a coworker today about 'once in a generation' players (albeit different sport) and that got me wondering...what would the roster look like or each position if we listed the best 'once in a generation' players that are actively playing right now? i know who that would be for OPP (well, multiple players), but not so sure about other positions. I don’t think there are currently generational players at every position playing right now. If we’re talking about generational players for each country… S: ? MB: Eda (and honestly maybe Zehra) OH: Gray?, Zhu (if she’s not done), Mihajlovic. Don’t agree with Gabi here. OPP: Egonu, Boskovic, Haak L: Castillo or De Gennaro |
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Post by basil on Jul 20, 2022 15:00:33 GMT -5
Gabi has not yet established herself as a generational player yet imo
not entirely in her control but Brazil needs to win something with her. give it a few years and maybe. especially if she stays with Vakifbank and they keep winning.
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Post by manyshaped on Jul 20, 2022 15:06:12 GMT -5
surprised there's no mention of carol, or if its just she's finally emerging as truly world class
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