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Post by SayonaraTachikara on Mar 24, 2023 12:28:12 GMT -5
I think y'all are underestimating the talent evaluation skills of (a) college coaches, whose livelihood depends on getting the best athletes to their programs, and (b) club coaches/directors whose success depends on their ability to put the best setter on their teams. Potentially so, but I think some could also underestimate the politics involved in club level volleyball. Couple that with limited budgets and time to evaluate talent in many instances you have to bet the horse not the jockey, which happens. For every one sucess story in the NCAA, there is 10 that never evolve, fizzle out or end up being a transfer portal gypsy because of being overhyped by their club. That is not exclusive to volleyball though. That happens in every sport.
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Post by 1stTouch on Mar 24, 2023 13:16:19 GMT -5
I think y'all are underestimating the talent evaluation skills of (a) college coaches, whose livelihood depends on getting the best athletes to their programs, and (b) club coaches/directors whose success depends on their ability to put the best setter on their teams. Potentially so, but I think some could also underestimate the politics involved in club level volleyball. Couple that with limited budgets and time to evaluate talent in many instances you have to bet the horse not the jockey, which happens. For every one sucess story in the NCAA, there is 10 that never evolve, fizzle out or end up being a transfer portal gypsy because of being overhyped by their club. That is not exclusive to volleyball though. That happens in every sport. Agree! Look at the NFL where the teams have multiple scouts, private investigators, combine measurements, interviews, agents.........and not every 1st round draft pick is a hit......so money doesn't always buy you the best player. Some coaches are just better at spotting talent or see the "heart" of the player who wants to win. Sometimes coaches just get lucky and happen to draft Tom Brady in the 6th round.
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Post by boh on Mar 24, 2023 13:58:53 GMT -5
I think y'all are underestimating the talent evaluation skills of (a) college coaches, whose livelihood depends on getting the best athletes to their programs, and (b) club coaches/directors whose success depends on their ability to put the best setter on their teams. Potentially so, but I think some could also underestimate the politics involved in club level volleyball. Couple that with limited budgets and time to evaluate talent in many instances you have to bet the horse not the jockey, which happens. For every one sucess story in the NCAA, there is 10 that never evolve, fizzle out or end up being a transfer portal gypsy because of being overhyped by their club. That is not exclusive to volleyball though. That happens in every sport. Agree with all of that, but I'd say its equal parts college coaches that lack the ability to connect with a player too, which is in the best interest of the coach and player. The amount of GREAT kids that I have coached that have been messed with mentally is honestly ridiculous. I know there are plenty of soft kids and parents out there that are going to claim the same thing, those are not the kids I am talking about
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Post by Bud Kilmer on Mar 24, 2023 14:03:08 GMT -5
I think y'all are underestimating the talent evaluation skills of (a) college coaches, whose livelihood depends on getting the best athletes to their programs, and (b) club coaches/directors whose success depends on their ability to put the best setter on their teams. obviously no club is going to put a kid on their top team that will hurt them but what people are saying is a lot of times all things being equal those kids arent necessarily a 5* recruit like red hat lady likes to rate players from said club. The others dont get the pub or the chance to set a college allstar team their entire career. I know some kids just cant make playing at a club like that because of logistics. As a coach, that doesnt mean that kid isnt as good or even better and I agree they should be able to tell that but......I just think a lot of coaches rely on the big name clubs and directors to do their scouting for them in a lot of aspects and of course those clubs are going to pimp their own. Like someone said, they bet the horse not the jockey. I dont see some of these issues in other sports.
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Post by ay2013 on Mar 24, 2023 14:06:50 GMT -5
Many coaches over the years have been lulled to sleep by setters who set to stud pin hitters on club teams. The setters that are most successful take decent teams and make them infinetly better. Any setter can chuck a ball to 4 and look good on a top tier club team. Can they consistantly set middle? Can they better the ball in OOS situations off less than stellar passing. Can they effectively run a tempo offense and spread the ball when needed? Do they set the tone with their defense. We have seen many a setter make the move to the NCAA and quickly get exposed. I think many of the ones listed above fit the bill to be very successful at the next level from what I have seen. I also know there are a few setters out there still undiscovered on less than stellar teams that are just as talented, but don't have the supporting cast. Those are the gems that will emerge in the NCAA. One name that comes to mind would be Nicklin Hames. Say what you will about her, but she was smaller, not as athletic as some, but had the grit, heart and creativity to overachieve every single year. I don’t inherently disagree with this but I’m not sure what you mean by being “undiscovered” and using Hames as an example. By this time for the 2018 class (sophomore club season), Hames was already committed to Nebraska and on the elite USAV youth training teams. She wasn’t some unknown, not talked about player - she was already one of the top 3 setter prospects in the class.
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Post by madden55 on Mar 24, 2023 14:08:26 GMT -5
Many coaches over the years have been lulled to sleep by setters who set to stud pin hitters on club teams. The setters that are most successful take decent teams and make them infinetly better. Any setter can chuck a ball to 4 and look good on a top tier club team. Can they consistantly set middle? Can they better the ball in OOS situations off less than stellar passing. Can they effectively run a tempo offense and spread the ball when needed? Do they set the tone with their defense. We have seen many a setter make the move to the NCAA and quickly get exposed. I think many of the ones listed above fit the bill to be very successful at the next level from what I have seen. I also know there are a few setters out there still undiscovered on less than stellar teams that are just as talented, but don't have the supporting cast. Those are the gems that will emerge in the NCAA. One name that comes to mind would be Nicklin Hames. Say what you will about her, but she was smaller, not as athletic as some, but had the grit, heart and creativity to overachieve every single year. I don’t inherently disagree with this but I’m not sure what you mean by being “undiscovered” and using Hames as an example. By this time for the 2018 class (sophomore club season), Hames was already committed to Nebraska and on the elite USAV youth training teams. She wasn’t some unknown, not talked about player - she was already one of the top 3 setter prospects in the class. literally I was like wtf when he got to the hames part lol
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Post by boh on Mar 24, 2023 14:11:52 GMT -5
Agreed. I think of the 1st alliance 17 gold setter last year ( the team that won open). She is not well known, going to a mid major but I watched her against an insane Coast team deliver hittable balls from eh passing and scrappy defense point after point after point. She wasn't flashy, she was an athlete who made all her hitters better. That is someone I watch in club and think wow they are gonna do some great things at the next level. So many times a setter checks boxes but how do they perform when they have to fight their way to being the best. That is who Nicklin reminds me of. Someone who felt she was underrated and set forth to prove she was deserving of the N on her jersey. Agreed on the kid from 1st Alliance… She’s been damn good for as far back as 14s. Undersized so she doesn’t get the pub, but runs her team like a boss. The team got better and better around her as the years progressed and they cashed in with a National Championship last year. If I remember correctly she’s going to Memphis. Lots of respect for her game. I remember talking to her coach last year after they qualified in open the weekend before. She told me their middle led them in kills the weekend they qualified. Any setter that can get a middle enough balls to even have a chance at being NEAR their kills leader says something about how they run an offense. Especially when you have two very legit outsides. Totally agree with how impressive she is.
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Post by SayonaraTachikara on Mar 24, 2023 15:23:26 GMT -5
I don’t inherently disagree with this but I’m not sure what you mean by being “undiscovered” and using Hames as an example. By this time for the 2018 class (sophomore club season), Hames was already committed to Nebraska and on the elite USAV youth training teams. She wasn’t some unknown, not talked about player - she was already one of the top 3 setter prospects in the class. literally I was like wtf when he got to the hames part lol My point is , she was not on an "elite" club team stacked with tons of D1 Pin Hitters, don't get me wrong her team was talented but she was not playing on a TAV, Sports Performance, A5 etc etc stacked team. She knew how to do all of the above that I have already mentioned. She made the team she was on infinitely better. You plug her into a talented NCAA team and away she goes without being a "6'2 lefty setter".
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Post by ay2013 on Mar 24, 2023 16:40:26 GMT -5
literally I was like wtf when he got to the hames part lol My point is , she was not on an "elite" club team stacked with tons of D1 Pin Hitters, don't get me wrong her team was talented but she was not playing on a TAV, Sports Performance, A5 etc etc stacked team. She knew how to do all of the above that I have already mentioned. She made the team she was on infinitely better. You plug her into a talented NCAA team and away she goes without being a "6'2 lefty setter". I get your point that she wasn't on a club team stacked with elite D1 hitters and that she made her club team better, but wouldn't that run contrary to your point about being "undiscovered". A player like Hames wasn't ultra physical and wasn't on a stacked club team, yet she was still a highly-known commodity at an early age, had early offers from elite programs, trained with the USAV youth national teams, and ended up being the #1 rated setter for the class of 2018 (back when the actual college coaches had real input in the senior aces rankings). This goes back to n00b's point about us underestimating talent evaluation (and I tend to agree with him). At this point in club volleyball, it's really hard to be a true "under-the-radar" player. The recruiters know who these players are. The problem is that, at least on volleytalk, the players that get hand-picked by the USAV machine (which is sometimes motivated by things OTHER than who actually is the best player in the gym at the time) get overhyped/overexposed (I've been on several soap boxes about this throughout the years) and, partly because of the echo chamber here, there is this underlying assumption that because a player chooses to go to Stanford, Nebraska, or Texas etc. that they MUST be the best, or perhaps more importantly, that if players aren't going to those handful of schools or aren't in the USAV gym, they aren't (won't be) just as good as players committing to those schools. Those players are NOT the only good players out there, and that becomes crystal clear very early. Specifically to the 2025 setters mentioned - I'm not trying to say that some of the players mentioned before are great just because they are left-handed, or get overhyped because they play on stacked rosters. They have some of those skills you mentioned and, IMO, would standout on a non-stacked team (I think from a comment you made earlier, you agree with that re the 2025 setters mentioned).
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Post by notvballdad on Mar 24, 2023 17:02:32 GMT -5
I'm not sure how much college coaches now actually care about finding the "undiscovered" talent honestly. The transfer portal does that work for them. Again, i have a singular experience in this but from my very limited sample, many coaches lists are incredibly short for recruiting now...as in maybe 3 kids total. If they don't get those three, they don't look that hard beyond those because the undiscovered kids will end up at smaller schools and mid majors, will get coached by those coaches and once they over perform in those other conferences, they'll get recruited by the blue bloods to transfer after they have proven they can play or are now on the radar. In good scenarios, they'll get them for a couple of years. In other scenarios, they may get them for a grad transfer. But the work on finding players beyond the obvious just isn't that important. Look at the all american teams and the teams that made the final four/championship. Look at what age those players were/how many years experience those players had. They weren't freshmen. They were grown women. Experience, continued physical maturity and emotional maturity are what wins. So at the P5/Top 25 level, coaches, for the most part (and I know there are exceptions like new staffs and rebuilding cultures) don't have to care about discovering anyone. They can just focus on the obvious and then work the portal a couple of times a year.
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Post by ay2013 on Mar 24, 2023 17:10:20 GMT -5
I'm not sure how much college coaches now actually care about finding the "undiscovered" talent honestly. The transfer portal does that work for them. Again, i have a singular experience in this but from my very limited sample, many coaches lists are incredibly short for recruiting now...as in maybe 3 kids total. If they don't get those three, they don't look that hard beyond those because the undiscovered kids will end up at smaller schools and mid majors, will get coached by those coaches and once they over perform in those other conferences, they'll get recruited by the blue bloods to transfer after they have proven they can play or are now on the radar. In good scenarios, they'll get them for a couple of years. In other scenarios, they may get them for a grad transfer. But the work on finding players beyond the obvious just isn't that important. Look at the all american teams and the teams that made the final four/championship. Look at what age those players were/how many years experience those players had. They weren't freshmen. They were grown women. Experience, continued physical maturity and emotional maturity are what wins. So at the P5/Top 25 level, coaches, for the most part (and I know there are exceptions like new staffs and rebuilding cultures) don't have to care about discovering anyone. They can just focus on the obvious and then work the portal a couple of times a year. Not surprised in the least.
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Post by outlaw on Mar 24, 2023 18:11:49 GMT -5
Totally. A wise coach shared a recruiting hack with me one time. Listen to the chatter and hype in club, but dig into their high school season. No one looks at that. If they excel in high school working with the talent they are given and not selected and do well with that, along with club, odds are you have someone coachable and who will succeed at the next level. Ding ding ding. Exactly. Funny thing is, some of these kids and I am speaking about a certain North Texas Club all play HS together too on a stacked private school team....so you can never evaluate them on an avg talent team because they have never been on one. To me as a coach, that might be a red flag. I think if they did play on an avg high school team things would be exposed. Of course no one digs that deep, all the volleyball publications just spill the same hype from club over to hs. LOL
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Post by SayonaraTachikara on Mar 25, 2023 8:37:05 GMT -5
My point is , she was not on an "elite" club team stacked with tons of D1 Pin Hitters, don't get me wrong her team was talented but she was not playing on a TAV, Sports Performance, A5 etc etc stacked team. She knew how to do all of the above that I have already mentioned. She made the team she was on infinitely better. You plug her into a talented NCAA team and away she goes without being a "6'2 lefty setter". I get your point that she wasn't on a club team stacked with elite D1 hitters and that she made her club team better, but wouldn't that run contrary to your point about being "undiscovered". A player like Hames wasn't ultra physical and wasn't on a stacked club team, yet she was still a highly-known commodity at an early age, had early offers from elite programs, trained with the USAV youth national teams, and ended up being the #1 rated setter for the class of 2018 (back when the actual college coaches had real input in the senior aces rankings). This goes back to n00b 's point about us underestimating talent evaluation (and I tend to agree with him). At this point in club volleyball, it's really hard to be a true "under-the-radar" player. The recruiters know who these players are. The problem is that, at least on volleytalk, the players that get hand-picked by the USAV machine (which is sometimes motivated by things OTHER than who actually is the best player in the gym at the time) get overhyped/overexposed (I've been on several soap boxes about this throughout the years) and, partly because of the echo chamber here, there is this underlying assumption that because a player chooses to go to Stanford, Nebraska, or Texas etc. that they MUST be the best, or perhaps more importantly, that if players aren't going to those handful of schools or aren't in the USAV gym, they aren't (won't be) just as good as players committing to those schools. Those players are NOT the only good players out there, and that becomes crystal clear very early. Specifically to the 2025 setters mentioned - I'm not trying to say that some of the players mentioned before are great just because they are left-handed, or get overhyped because they play on stacked rosters. They have some of those skills you mentioned and, IMO, would standout on a non-stacked team (I think from a comment you made earlier, you agree with that re the 2025 setters mentioned). Certainly great points and hard to argue with most of them. Relating to Nicklin, I tried to keep the obvious out of this, but let's not forget her last name is Hames. Her parents with their coaching records and connections in the sport absolutely influenced looks she was getting. Don't get me wrong, she earned every look she got, but if this was a typical setter from Knoxville with the same physical attirbutes without the connections, no way she gets the same looks Nicklin did. Her heart and passion for the sport along with being a flatout being a winner took her futher than any physical attribute. Her high school accomplishments also tie in to my point. She was also 5 time state champion at the high school level. Sometimes setters are just winners and it is tough to see that in a 20 min qualifier fly by.
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Post by c4ndlelight on Mar 25, 2023 12:44:47 GMT -5
I remember talking to her coach last year after they qualified in open the weekend before. She told me their middle led them in kills the weekend they qualified. Any setter that can get a middle enough balls to even have a chance at being NEAR their kills leader says something about how they run an offense. Especially when you have two very legit outsides. Totally agree with how impressive she is. Exactly! If a middle is the kills leader that is one hell of a setter. Oh dear, not this. It literally takes years to de-program setters from the mindset that setting the middle is making the "good" set.
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Post by skyspy on Mar 26, 2023 20:11:02 GMT -5
NLQ results for 16 Open division in Minneapolis this weekend.
Bid given to: 1st - 1st Alliance (bid) 2nd - Nebraska ONE 16 Synergy (bid) 3rd (tie) - Nebraska Premier 16 Gold (bid) 3rd (tie) - Drive Nation (already had bid)
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