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Post by mahina on Apr 5, 2007 11:11:25 GMT -5
If dave shoji is so great, and Hawaii has great fan support and university support and all that good stuff, why havn't they won a NC in forever? That's a serious question, not a dig / flame. Why do they have problems getting those top flight recruits? Are a lot of mainland people reluctant to move out to an island far away, or is there some other reason? Why does Tennessee not get the top flight recruits? Is it because no one really wants to live there or is there some other reason? And why is the Tennessee coach not being named as one of the great coaches? Is it because he's never ever won a national championship? I'm really not trying to flame/dig here, I'm truly just wondering...
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Post by redincolorado on Apr 5, 2007 11:11:55 GMT -5
If dave shoji is so great, and Hawaii has great fan support and university support and all that good stuff, why havn't they won a NC in forever? That's a serious question, not a dig / flame. Alright, alright. I'll take a shot at it. There are a lot of factors to consider. First, consider that Hawaii's last title came in 1987. From 1988 - 1994, regions were actually conference based. Hence, Hawaii always had Pacific and Long Beach to contend with in the regionals. It would be similar to putting Penn State, Minnesota, Wisconsin, and Ohio State all in the same regional. It makes it harder to win a title when you are seeing a conference foe for the third time. Another reason (and many Hawaii fans will take varied views on it), is that [glow=red,2,300] Hawaii hasn't been able to get the talent that Nebraska, Florida, and Stanford have gotten. [/glow] Looking at most of Hawaii's recruits, Hawaii hasn't gotten a lot of those top tier players as others have. Of course, this is due to varied reason, but in recent memory, I can only think of about 4-5 players in ranked in the top 10 as prep players (Kamanoa, Houston, Willoughby, and Boogard; Salaeumua commit but didn't end up at Hawaii). Most of Hawaii's recruits hover around the 25-30 on the prep lists. And while Hawaii has the opportunity to develop these players, they are not getting players like Tom, Pavan, or Klineman who will make an impact for 4 years. I think part of it has to do with Shoji's coaching style. I think part of his strategy is a little out-dated. That being said, he is one of the winningest coaches all time, has the top volleyball program that doesn't have any BCS money (not to mention one of the top programs in the nation), built from scratch the only completely financially viable volleyball program in the nation. He founded this program, so he has every right to do whatever he wants and I personally don't think anyone else has the right to be overly critical. And part of it is just the cycle of programs. Long Beach was a major contender in the 80s and 90s but haven't done anything after 2001. Florida was a major contender for about 10 years but has been out of the Final Four for the past 3 seasons and Gator fans admit that if they don't make it this season, it will be a while before they make it there again. Penn State made 3 back to back championship appearances but has only 1 title and haven't been to the Final Four since. UCLA and USC were dominant in their times and only recently came back to be threats. You can shuffle your top ten list any way you want. Shoot, draw em' out of a hat if you want. They're all outstanding. What it comes down to is the players. You give anybody on your top ten list a roster full of Pavans, Akinradewo's, Barboza's, Meriwether's, Thompson's etc & they're going to win--plain and simple. Was Cook better than Dunning in last seasons final? He designed the game plan to nuetralize Barboza but he wasn't out there on the court implementing it. You pick the coach from your top ten list and then let him/her cherrypick who he wants as players from any & all the top programs around the country and they're going own the palace.
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Post by pz9ysr on Apr 5, 2007 11:46:18 GMT -5
Perhaps look at how many current coaches have touched base at one point in their career with one of these Master Coaches. Penn State seems to be a recurring factor on many coaching resumes.
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Post by Barefoot In Kailua on Apr 5, 2007 11:54:06 GMT -5
These questions always ended up being a pissing contest. There is no right or wrong answer, unless you look at the record books.
My picks
Shoji Wise Rose McLaughlin Dunning Cook Haley Gimmilaro
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Post by roy on Apr 5, 2007 12:59:19 GMT -5
Why do they have problems getting those top flight recruits? Are a lot of mainland people reluctant to move out to an island far away, or is there some other reason? Again, varied reasons. Some top players were heavily recruited by Hawaii, but decided not to commit there. You can’t fault Shoji for not trying. He went after playes like Tom, Klineman, and Cruz of Florida. I think Tom’s reason was that she wanted a Stanford education. Others were that Hawaii was too far so their families couldn’t see them play as often as they would had they commit to other programs. Even some local players didn’t stay at Hawaii because they wanted to expand their horizons and leave the islands for the mainland. And those are not bad reasons for players not to chose Hawaii. Each player needs to find her own program that she fits into best.
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Post by Chance on Apr 5, 2007 13:05:55 GMT -5
If dave shoji is so great, and Hawaii has great fan support and university support and all that good stuff, why havn't they won a NC in forever? That's a serious question, not a dig / flame. Why do they have problems getting those top flight recruits? Are a lot of mainland people reluctant to move out to an island far away, or is there some other reason? Why does Tennessee not get the top flight recruits? Is it because no one really wants to live there or is there some other reason? And why is the Tennessee coach not being named as one of the great coaches? Is it because he's never ever won a national championship? I'm really not trying to flame/dig here, I'm truly just wondering... I asked why Hawaii hadn't won more championships in spite of a great fanbase, a coach considered to be great, a lot of non championship success etc... This is a legitamate question to ask, because you would think with all of those positives they would have won one more recently, and I'm honestly curious to know why. Part of the answer was "trouble landing top flight recruits." The next logical question is "why has a program which averages so many fans, has a very good coach, has had extremely consistant non championship success, etc... having trouble drawing recruits." It doesn't make sense to turn the question around and ask about Tennessee, except for a lame attempt to be clever in the assumption that I'm actually trying to make fun of Hawaii and not asking a serious question. Tennessee doesn't have a huge fanbase that helps provide home court advantage and plays a big role in recruiting. If we get 1,000 people at a game, it's a big deal. We get virtually no media coverage compared to hawaii. We don't have a history of success to speak of. We did pretty well in the early 80s, IIRC, but then had a very long stretch of unsuccessful volleyball. When we made the tournament 2 years ago, it was the first time in a long time. We have virtually no local talent. Our coach did win national coach of the year recently, but certainly doesn't have the prestige / reputation of somebody like Shoji. There is no "dissconnect" between the strengths of our program and our non championship success, and our number of championships.
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Post by mahina on Apr 5, 2007 13:16:32 GMT -5
And of course you're assuming that the only measure of a successful program or great coach is a 'recent' national championship -- nevermind past championships, post-season success, win//loss percentage, fan support, etc. My point is your question is not really legitimate nor are the questions all that curious. If you really are curious than you need to know there is a lot of parity now in volleyball and only one team each year can be champion and it's obviously not easy. Just as it's not easy to reach the final four, elite eight or sweet sixteen -- or land the top recruit. There are many great coaches each year who don't win the national championship. A perfect example is Mary Wise who is clearly a great coach despite not having won one.
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Post by rephog on Apr 5, 2007 13:31:16 GMT -5
Here is the release of the 2006 AVCA Hall of Fame class. www.avca.org/NewsDetail.asp?id=324 Just know that there are some successful coaches out there that have a team full of unhappy players. Winning National Championships is the ultimate goal of every program with the means and players to do so, but where does the over-all experience and treatment of the student athlete rank? The coaches who make the experience all about the team and players rather than themselves tend to get more out of those players. Those athletes leave with a much better over-all experience and maybe a ring in the process.
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Post by bigfan on Apr 5, 2007 14:03:36 GMT -5
Mick Haley....USC Andy Banachowski.......UCLA
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Post by jr67 on Apr 5, 2007 15:04:35 GMT -5
I’m gonna cheat a little. Here are my lists:
The Old Guard or the Living Legends: --Dave Shoji --Andy Banachowski --John Dunning --Russ Rose --Mick Haley These are the elder statesmen of the game.
The, for lack of a better term, Mid Generation: --John Cook --Mary Wise --Jim McLaughlin --Jon Stevenson --Ruben Nieves These coaches have been a round a while but not as long as the Old Guard. Most of them are probably in the middle of their coaching careers right now.
The New Blood: --Charlie Wade -- -- -- -- These are coaches just starting or are still in the early stages of their head coaching careers but who look to have bright futures (not necessarily at their current schools).
I can’t think of anyone else to put here. Anybody have any suggestions? If recruiting ability was the only criteria I’d add Jerritt Elliott; but it’s not.
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Post by cbrown1709 on Apr 5, 2007 15:41:56 GMT -5
I would add Craig Skinner to the new blood. He is already made lots of improvemtents at UK.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2007 16:44:50 GMT -5
I'll offer something with a little more objectivity to it. This is top 10 final finishes in the last 6 years. I chose 6 years because it's current, but doesn't rely on a single class. 10 points for #1, 9 points for #2, etc. Number in parentheses is the number of top 10 finishes.
1--Nebraska [39 (5)] --Stanford [39 (5)] 3--USC [36 (5)] 4--Florida [30 (5)] 5--Washington [27 (4)] 6--Hawaii [23 (5)] 7--Minnesota [21 (3)] 8--PSU [20 (4)] 9--UCLA [18 (4)] 10--Pepperdine [13 (3)]
11--Arizona [12 (3)] 12--LBSU [9 (1)] 13--Santa Clara [7 (1)] 14--Tennessee [6 (1)] 15--Ohio State [5 (1)] --Wisconsin [5 (2)] 17--Washington State [4 (1)] --Texas [4 (1)] 19--Georgia Tech [3 (1)] --Missouri [3 (1)] --UCSB [3 (1)]
22--UNI [2 (1)] 23--Colorado State [1 (1)]
I believe only WSU has had more than 1 coach in these 6 years. Maybe Texas and USC? I forget when Haley began. Washington?
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Post by Wolfgang on Apr 5, 2007 16:49:56 GMT -5
I could've been great.
But enough about me. What do YOU think about me?
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Post by StanfordFan on Apr 5, 2007 17:59:35 GMT -5
Are we talking only current coaches? I'd put Don Shaw at the top of the list. It's sad he wasn't able to replicate on the men's side.
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Post by Chance on Apr 5, 2007 19:00:54 GMT -5
And of course you're assuming that the only measure of a successful program or great coach is a 'recent' national championship -- nevermind past championships, post-season success, win//loss percentage, fan support, etc. My point is your question is not really legitimate nor are the questions all that curious. If you really are curious than you need to know there is a lot of parity now in volleyball and only one team each year can be champion and it's obviously not easy. Just as it's not easy to reach the final four, elite eight or sweet sixteen -- or land the top recruit. There are many great coaches each year who don't win the national championship. A perfect example is Mary Wise who is clearly a great coach despite not having won one. You are to busy getting defensive to read carefully. I'm not assuming "recent championships" are the ONLY measure of success. I clearly said it seems there is a dissconect between how successful hawaii has been ASIDE from championships (in the last 20 years) and their number of championships in the last 20 years. Who are you to sit there and contradict me about the intent of my OWN questions? It's BECAUSE of all the "other" kinds of success you were talking about (winning %, conference champs, sweet 16s, fanbase, etc...) that it becomes a completely legitamate question for an admitted non volleyball expert to ask. And apparently there are some legitamate answers, such as roy explaining that how for 6 of those years they played in a stacked regional. Or perhaps their current conference (which is weak IIRC) subjects them to the same difficulty that florida had, where their conference play doesn't prepare them for tournament play. If you dont buy into any of those and think it's just "bad luck combined with parity" then you can say that without going crazy on a perfectly normal question.
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