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Post by vballman1234 on Sept 5, 2014 9:04:46 GMT -5
I've watched Lightning matches and I never saw a Lightning coach or player argue with a ref. On the other hand, sometimes their philosophy seemed maybe even too laid back. I've watched North Shore/Milwaukee matches and saw players and coaches argue with refs. Maybe that means they wanted it more or maybe they didn't show as much respect. Don't know. But it's good for players to have options as to what kind of team they want to play for. There are or were pros and cons to both clubs and both clubs had loyal followers. I think that competition between clubs keeps clubs honest in what they charge, the coaches they hire, and how they treat the kids. I would worry if one club had a monopoly on the area's talent. Amen. MVC has ruffled the feathers of most officials. Mostly with their 2's teams where the coaches seem to have a 1's attitude but don't have 1's players.
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Post by strikestwice on Sept 5, 2014 12:53:25 GMT -5
With all of the developments happening in the past couple of weeks, I have a few questions and thoughts. First, with Sting bringing on some of the Lightning coaches, I wonder if MVC reached out to any of the Lightning coaches, especially considering they are trying to have 3 teams at some age levels. As for the competing of the clubs, I think that it is good for the sport to have competition from club to club. Think about having to play the same teams in tournaments that you can compete against every day in practice. Along with that, why necessarily do these kids have to go to MVC to play together and form the ultimate team.....what is to say that they couldn't do the same thing at another club. I recall the last time this happened, the team ended up winning two National Championships, and they did not play for MVC, they went to Lightning. MVC certainly does have a long history of success, an impressive resume, and some good quality coaches for sure. But there are other programs as well that have just as much success if not more. I am curious to see what kind of turn out Sting gets, I think that a new rivalry going forward is going to be great. I think that having MVC and Lightning both around at the same time made both of the clubs better because they had to in order to compete with the other. If all of the kids go to one club, what is going to be their driving force to strive to get better as a club overall?
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Post by vballmanchild on Sept 5, 2014 16:03:28 GMT -5
They, the WAL champ teams, went to WAL because key WAL players weren't going to leave. So they left NSMVC (and believe me they didn't want to) to form the ultimate team. Wasn't a choice of clubs but a choice of who to play with (and win). Sure these former WAL players in limbo could go to Southwest, Penguins, etc. I think this "competition" makes clubs better is nonsense in the context of this discussion. Ask the So Cal clubs. That region is a mess of disloyalty and cut throat behavior to get players. MVC right now is only club offering elite training and consistent national exposure for players at all age levels. Why is this board so anti-MVC?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2014 16:14:52 GMT -5
They, the WAL champ teams, went to WAL because key WAL players weren't going to leave. So they left NSMVC (and believe me they didn't want to) to form the ultimate team. Wasn't a choice of clubs but a choice of who to play with (and win). Sure these former WAL players in limbo could go to Southwest, Penguins, etc. I think this "competition" makes clubs better is nonsense in the context of this discussion. Ask the So Cal clubs. That region is a mess of disloyalty and cut throat behavior to get players. MVC right now is only club offering elite training and consistent national exposure for players at all age levels. Why is this board so anti-MVC? As you have already stated you are biased towards MVC. Why not just let the kids go where they want to? Or better yet, maybe they take your son's spot and you won't be biased anymore.
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Post by priddyboy on Sept 5, 2014 16:49:54 GMT -5
They, the WAL champ teams, went to WAL because key WAL players weren't going to leave. So they left NSMVC (and believe me they didn't want to) to form the ultimate team. Wasn't a choice of clubs but a choice of who to play with (and win). Sure these former WAL players in limbo could go to Southwest, Penguins, etc. I think this "competition" makes clubs better is nonsense in the context of this discussion. Ask the So Cal clubs. That region is a mess of disloyalty and cut throat behavior to get players. MVC right now is only club offering elite training and consistent national exposure for players at all age levels. Why is this board so anti-MVC? MVC might be the only elite club at this very minute, but Sting could shake things up if they hire some of the more experienced and respected WAL coaches. I respectfully disagree with vballmanchild. I can't really think of an instance in life where having competition doesn't raise the level of performance. Free markets are a basic tenet of our country. Let the market determine whether MVC is the only elite club -- the players' decisions this fall will tell you. I'm not anti-MVC. I have no strong feeling one way or the other. Regarding what's going on in So Cal, why is it disloyalty when players move around but not disloyalty when clubs don't extend offers to their previous players? It's got to be a free market both ways. If the clubs are being cut throat, then you are talking about bad adults who are supposed to lead these kids by example. Where are the region officials and more importantly, the parents, in those situations? You would think that parents would steer their kids away from adults who are engaging in inappropriate behavior. That's the free market.
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Post by divingisstupid on Sept 5, 2014 20:11:29 GMT -5
I'm going to have to agree with vballmanchild here. Splitting talent may be great for the last few guys that make each team because a couple may break into a starting role they didn't have before...but for the real elite players it makes ZERO SENSE if your true intention is to get better. To improve you need to play and practice day-in and day-out with 10-12 other high level players. Consistent, intense practice environments with great coaching is what takes the top players to the next level. When it comes to coaching...I think MVC has the edge. Especially since Lightning lost Jake Cosson who coached that 18s team to gold a couple years ago. He was their best coach.
I think everyone has missed the key point here...people from both sides have cited the number of gold finishes and national titles to make 1 side sound better. The main theme under ALL of those high level teams was that they were age groups that COMBINED ALL THE TALENT TO 1 TEAM!!!!! Every time that has happened - this area has put a hurting on the rest of the nation. This years MVC 18s and 15s were a combined team and made gold. The WAL 16s have the majority of the talent and made a solid run but needed one more guy to put them over the top. Stadick is great but can't do it all by himself. I think if you ask players from either side who jumped over to either MVC or WAL - when all the dust settled..it wasn't about the name on the jersey it was about having the best chance to win. At this point..with the coaches at all levels...MVC is the better option for the top guys in my opinion.
Boys players will have plenty of places to play. 1 team per age group from WAL can disperse among the areas clubs and without question find a place to play. It really comes down to what to the elite guys want to do - especially the older ones. Keep doing what they've been doing and hope for the best...with level of talent at 18s in california I hope not because a split team stands no chance against HBC... 17s and 16s is the same boat. Or...combine and have a shot or two at doing something special.
Things I'd worry about with Sting. Its a girls problem 3-5 teams deep at every age group. Girls are the priority and there is no debate about that. They've tried to start boys before and failed. Now they get a gift-wrapped program and whatever is left of the staff from WAL and whoever they can hire in the area that isn't already working at another club...that simply can't be the best of the best when it comes to staff. WAL was so great because they had great leadership. The Hardwicks are great people and knew what they were doing. Highly experienced and highly organized. Heard Sting made a WAL 16s coach the new director of the boys side and are just saying "good luck." Zero directing experience. Seems strange they wouldn't put someone with a serious resume in charge of a boys program like that. Not saying he isn't a solid coach or good guy, but directing a whole program is not the same thing.
As far as "if all the players go to MVC, what will be their driving force to get better?" What do you really think they would do after tryouts if they get most of the talent? Play back row 4s until its time for Nationals? Doubtful. Clubs don't stay around that long if they aren't trying to get better all the time. Tons of experienced players and coaches there and they like to compete to win. I don't think they would have started their beach program a few years ago if they were content with being average. They are way ahead of other clubs in that area and thats huge going forward especially for young players and their ball control.
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Post by pancakesandgators on Sept 5, 2014 21:34:47 GMT -5
They, the WAL champ teams, went to WAL because key WAL players weren't going to leave. So they left NSMVC (and believe me they didn't want to) to form the ultimate team. Wasn't a choice of clubs but a choice of who to play with (and win). Sure these former WAL players in limbo could go to Southwest, Penguins, etc. I think this "competition" makes clubs better is nonsense in the context of this discussion. Ask the So Cal clubs. That region is a mess of disloyalty and cut throat behavior to get players. MVC right now is only club offering elite training and consistent national exposure for players at all age levels. Why is this board so anti-MVC? As one of the players who decided to leave NSMVC, your statement is untrue for myself. For me, it was not due to any club alliance or that I wanted to leave or did not want to leave, it was simply the fact that WAL placed higher at National's my 14's year and 15's year. It was the most logical choice. I equally respected both clubs no matter the jersey I wore on my back. I like to think I played more for Wisconsin and Midwest Boy's volleyball than anything else. That being said, I really hope former WAL players will move to MVC. I think Nowak and Kuehl have really made an effort to be a even better organization than before. They have great coaches from top to bottom and they are more traditionally a boys' club. I very much enjoyed my time there when the club was NSMVC. I got to be coached by IMO one of Wisconsin's best in Kevin Gemignani. I think if the juniors want to go to a place that can possess teams that will immediately compete on the national scene, MVC is the place to go.
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Post by vballman1234 on Sept 8, 2014 9:32:20 GMT -5
They, the WAL champ teams, went to WAL because key WAL players weren't going to leave. So they left NSMVC (and believe me they didn't want to) to form the ultimate team. Wasn't a choice of clubs but a choice of who to play with (and win). Sure these former WAL players in limbo could go to Southwest, Penguins, etc. I think this "competition" makes clubs better is nonsense in the context of this discussion. Ask the So Cal clubs. That region is a mess of disloyalty and cut throat behavior to get players. MVC right now is only club offering elite training and consistent national exposure for players at all age levels. Why is this board so anti-MVC? As one of the players who decided to leave NSMVC, your statement is untrue for myself. For me, it was not due to any club alliance or that I wanted to leave or did not want to leave, it was simply the fact that WAL placed higher at National's my 14's year and 15's year. It was the most logical choice. I equally respected both clubs no matter the jersey I wore on my back. I like to think I played more for Wisconsin and Midwest Boy's volleyball than anything else. That being said, I really hope former WAL players will move to MVC. I think Nowak and Kuehl have really made an effort to be a even better organization than before. They have great coaches from top to bottom and they are more traditionally a boys' club. I very much enjoyed my time there when the club was NSMVC. I got to be coached by IMO one of Wisconsin's best in Kevin Gemignani. I think if the juniors want to go to a place that can possess teams that will immediately compete on the national scene, MVC is the place to go.
You sir, are a rarity. You are young, but someday you will realize that having those choices was a privilege. Boys who are 9, 10, 11-years-old right now might not have those choices. Who wants to have just one dominant club? Maybe in communist Russia.
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Post by pancakesandgators on Sept 8, 2014 22:08:35 GMT -5
As one of the players who decided to leave NSMVC, your statement is untrue for myself. For me, it was not due to any club alliance or that I wanted to leave or did not want to leave, it was simply the fact that WAL placed higher at National's my 14's year and 15's year. It was the most logical choice. I equally respected both clubs no matter the jersey I wore on my back. I like to think I played more for Wisconsin and Midwest Boy's volleyball than anything else. That being said, I really hope former WAL players will move to MVC. I think Nowak and Kuehl have really made an effort to be a even better organization than before. They have great coaches from top to bottom and they are more traditionally a boys' club. I very much enjoyed my time there when the club was NSMVC. I got to be coached by IMO one of Wisconsin's best in Kevin Gemignani. I think if the juniors want to go to a place that can possess teams that will immediately compete on the national scene, MVC is the place to go.
You sir, are a rarity. You are young, but someday you will realize that having those choices was a privilege. Boys who are 9, 10, 11-years-old right now might not have those choices. Who wants to have just one dominant club? Maybe in communist Russia.
I understand my choices were a privilege. I also understand that the age group I was in was a privilege. Not to sound cocky or arrogant, but I believe that it could be a long time until there is as much top to bottom talent for one graduating class as there was for my graduatingclass. I don't downplay any other graduating classes but we had some of the deepest talent the state could see. As for the dominant club comment, rethinking it, I am a little bit on the fence. As a player, I would go to MVC because of the history and coaching. As a supporter of Wisconsin Boy's Volleyball, I would not want a dominant club to encourage the growth of the sport in numbers and ability. Though communist Russia had pretty dominate teams going!
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Post by vballmanchild on Sept 9, 2014 12:57:22 GMT -5
This whole "dominant club" / communist Russia meme has me chuckling. But, let's the record straight at least as far as MVC goes. They've committed to multiple teams at ALL age levels this year (something WAL never did at HS age groups). They are trying to get enough coaches for three teams at HS age levels. That sounds more inclusive than anything else. They also have a fantastic history of developing talent at a "2's" team level since the mid 90's. Their 2's teams have qualified for Nationals on multiple occasions. A few college guys who developed late (Gibson, Shorewood, now OSU) were on 16-2 before they blossomed. Many 2's players developed into great high school players and honed their skills to start for their varsity. Again, that sounds inclusive and in the best interests of growing the sport. Lastly, the leadership of (NS)MVC was at the forefront of starting the Badger Region and serving on its board of directors for many, many years. If talent gangs up at one club, there is no evidence it hurts the growth of boys volleyball at all. Has the girls side ceased to grow after Sting started gathering all top talent in place? Indeed.
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Post by vballman1234 on Sept 9, 2014 15:57:23 GMT -5
Yikes, a lot of holes in that reply vballmanchild. First, girls & boys volleyball are NOT the same in any way/shape/form. Apples and oranges there.
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qudad
Junior High
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Post by qudad on Sept 9, 2014 21:44:08 GMT -5
More teams will always be better for Wisconsin volleyball. Discussing 1 vs 2 is a silly waste of time. Work to make 10 teams not bicker over 2. Imagine SE WI developing beach and indoor more and becoming the new So Cal. That can't happen with all this limited in a box 1 vs 2 thinking. Show support for all boys and offer more solutions not more belly aching.
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Post by vballman1234 on Sept 10, 2014 10:35:29 GMT -5
I like belly aching.
The first question here that has yet to be answered (I doubt we ever get the answer) is WHY Lightning did not plan ahead. How do you not find anyone to run the club. If it was too much work, then groom a replacement. This is such a joke.
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Post by toungeincheek on Sept 21, 2014 20:11:03 GMT -5
I like belly aching. The first question here that has yet to be answered (I doubt we ever get the answer) is WHY Lightning did not plan ahead. How do you not find anyone to run the club. If it was too much work, then groom a replacement. This is such a joke. Little known fact, Lightning has a connection with the local recreation department. I doubt the City of West Allis is willing to dish out at more than 30k to an administrator that doesn't really "grow" West Allis, and not many guys are taking that little compensation for such a time commitment.
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Post by vballman1234 on Sept 22, 2014 9:37:32 GMT -5
I think one club director in the state makes that much. There is no need to pay someone that much. This is just poor planning and people getting tired. They did well but that should not hurt future generations.
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