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Post by dorothymantooth on Sept 22, 2015 9:57:00 GMT -5
I was not making the generalization. Dumas was. I was continuing them to show how irrational he was. It worked. The Catholic Church analogy is a really hard one to correlate to the world of junior athletics. The Catholic Church holds itself above the laws of man and answers only to God. They've admittedly made decisions they've since regretted, but as asking for forgiveness absolves it's participants of sins starting over with a clean slate appears to be a common practice. I doubt the essence of confession and absolution will ever be diminished in the church, but they do seem to be slowly acknowledging the need for different methods in dealing with abusers and the abused in their membership. In return, their ask for your faith. Which some offer blindly, regardless of what may happen, and others lose their faith and leave. You could argue that paying tithes to an organization that has protected predators is enabling them to continue that practice, but that's really a stretch. Junior athletics is NOT a religion (despite the abundance of zealots) and they do have to adhere to both the law of the land as well as the code of ethics and bylaws of the organizations that represent them. There's no issue of "forgiveness" at play here. There were rules, they were broken. Coaches will not have sex with their high school players - heck, they will not have any sort of inappropriate relationship with their players - or they will be removed from the organization, and potentially criminally charged. They should not be cover ups, there should not be token, meaningless punishments. You pointed out the majority of outrage in this thread revolved around the lack of any punishment for Rick. I'd go a step further and say there's outrage that it could happen again. To be accurate, I havent pointed out anything as it relates to MR. Butler or what punishment was or wasnt handed down.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2015 10:00:32 GMT -5
The Catholic Church analogy is a really hard one to correlate to the world of junior athletics. The Catholic Church holds itself above the laws of man and answers only to God. They've admittedly made decisions they've since regretted, but as asking for forgiveness absolves it's participants of sins starting over with a clean slate appears to be a common practice. I doubt the essence of confession and absolution will ever be diminished in the church, but they do seem to be slowly acknowledging the need for different methods in dealing with abusers and the abused in their membership. In return, their ask for your faith. Which some offer blindly, regardless of what may happen, and others lose their faith and leave. You could argue that paying tithes to an organization that has protected predators is enabling them to continue that practice, but that's really a stretch. Junior athletics is NOT a religion (despite the abundance of zealots) and they do have to adhere to both the law of the land as well as the code of ethics and bylaws of the organizations that represent them. There's no issue of "forgiveness" at play here. There were rules, they were broken. Coaches will not have sex with their high school players - heck, they will not have any sort of inappropriate relationship with their players - or they will be removed from the organization, and potentially criminally charged. They should not be cover ups, there should not be token, meaningless punishments. You pointed out the majority of outrage in this thread revolved around the lack of any punishment for Rick. I'd go a step further and say there's outrage that it could happen again. To be accurate, I havent pointed out anything as it relates to MR. Butler or what punishment was or wasnt handed down. We are not worried about accuracy in this thread. Just opinions! (Sarcasm)
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Post by bigfan on Sept 22, 2015 10:02:25 GMT -5
In return, their ask for your faith. Which some offer blindly, regardless of what may happen, and others lose their faith and leave. You could argue that paying tithes to an organization that has protected predators is enabling them to continue that practice.................... You pointed out the majority of outrage in this thread revolved around the lack of any punishment for Rick. I'd go a step further and say there's outrage that it could happen again. The outrage is it WILL HAPPEN AGAIN IN girls volleyball and in the catholic church. Situations that happened with Mr Butler and the catholic church are going on right now, it wont come to light for 5, 10 years. Denial and cover ups continue on...........
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Post by netdirector on Sept 22, 2015 10:03:31 GMT -5
Assuming you are talking about me, if the analogy of the Catholic Church is irrational, that would be the point as it is what folks are suggesting everyone involved in club volleyball would not participate in anything involving this individual or business. Again, these aren't my words or thoughts, and I offer no support or defense of the parties in question. While I certainly think you could argue some may have been enablers, how far does that extend out to? The Catholic Church is a good analogy actually. Everything always comes back to Church and State. The Middle Ages were tough on the Church.
I am saying that the coaches, players, and parents are not enablers at Sports Performance.
Um, if not the coaches, players, and parents... then who enabled the success of Rick Butler in light of his sexually abusing his players?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2015 10:12:50 GMT -5
The Catholic Church is a good analogy actually. Everything always comes back to Church and State. The Middle Ages were tough on the Church.
I am saying that the coaches, players, and parents are not enablers at Sports Performance.
Um, if not the coaches, players, and parents... then who enabled the success of Rick Butler in light of his sexually abusing his players? Here is a novel idea. I understand you will have a tough time with this, but it is ok. Maybe they disagree with you.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2015 10:16:59 GMT -5
Thank you to those who have kept threads here alive so that a new generation of parents like me with 12, 13 and 14 year olds can be made aware of what happened and look up the original articles and court documents to decide for themselves. Since this story began 30 years ago and the AAU is deliberating right now on what actions (if any) to take, it is a bit disingenuous to say there is nothing to discuss on RB at the moment. In fact, there seems to be more actively going on right now then there has been for years. What court documents? Please share. Not from page 1. We already dismissed those. I like the generalized statement on AAU deliberations. I'm sure that is happening. Wink. Wink. Welcome to the forum. USA001 is a denier. No facts are enough for him. People like him like to spread doubt so it makes it harder for others to come forward. You have to wonder what motivates them, but I do not. So, again USA001, you claim there are no facts because you "dismiss" them all. 1. You ignore that butler has admitted the relationship several times but says he waited until they were 18. Which is countered by all three of the girls who say 16, 16, and 17. 2. You ignore that his entire basis of his appeal was based on him having sex with three minors should not be considered an embarrassment to USA Volleyball. He presented NO case to the court that he did not have sex nor did he present that the girls were over 18. Both would have been far more compelling arguments for whether it USAV should be embarrassed. The judgement was written by a judge who is now on the state supreme court. Judges do not write lines like "Butler had unprotected sex with three minors" lightly in judgements. unless there was an abundance of evidence. 3. You completely dismiss three women who all had very similar experiences and basically assume they are all colluding and lying for what gain? They have families, do you think they wanted to bring all the attention and pain into their lives "to destroy RB's business" as he suggested in one article. 4. And, then you dismiss that fact that RB, who claimed people were trying to destroy his business, never sued any of the publications that wrote the stories. The same person that sued USA Volleyball years before. The articles carry less weight for me, but the judge's written statement is clear as is the testimony of the three woman and their actions (trying to get him charged with rape in IL). People do not jeopardize their family life to try and smear someone they do not have contact with anymore -- maybe one person will, but not three all telling the same story with details corroborated with the accused own admissions.
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Post by netdirector on Sept 22, 2015 10:49:44 GMT -5
Um, if not the coaches, players, and parents... then who enabled the success of Rick Butler in light of his sexually abusing his players? Here is a novel idea. I understand you will have a tough time with this, but it is ok. Maybe they disagree with you.
Disagree with me on what? That they have enabled the success of Rick Butler? Considering they worked for him, played for him, and paid him... I'm pretty sure they're the core reason he's so successful. Do they disagree that Rick Butler had sex with at least 3 of his players? Not even Rick disagrees with that...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2015 11:26:32 GMT -5
Thank you to those who have kept threads here alive so that a new generation of parents like me with 12, 13 and 14 year olds can be made aware of what happened and look up the original articles and court documents to decide for themselves. Since this story began 30 years ago and the AAU is deliberating right now on what actions (if any) to take, it is a bit disingenuous to say there is nothing to discuss on RB at the moment. In fact, there seems to be more actively going on right now then there has been for years. What court documents? Please share. Not from page 1. We already dismissed those. I like the generalized statement on AAU deliberations. I'm sure that is happening. Wink. Wink. Welcome to the forum. Who exactly is the "we" that "already dismissed those"? Your comments don't inspire a lot of confidence in your credibility to someone new to this, so excuse me if I don't take your word for it and read it for myself. The court opinion is pretty clear. It would take quite a song and dance to explain it away to anybody who doesn't approach this topic with your strong bias. I am not naive enough to think the AAU is involved in anything but damage control. The fact remains that the fallout was bad enough from their fallen president that they now have to address the RB issue. That means like it or not RB will and should be a topic of discussion for the foreseeable future.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2015 11:55:03 GMT -5
What court documents? Please share. Not from page 1. We already dismissed those. I like the generalized statement on AAU deliberations. I'm sure that is happening. Wink. Wink. Welcome to the forum. Who exactly is the "we" that "already dismissed those"? Your comments don't inspire a lot of confidence in your credibility to someone new to this, so excuse me if I don't take your word for it and read it for myself. The court opinion is pretty clear. It would take quite a song and dance to explain it away to anybody who doesn't approach this topic with your strong bias. I am not naive enough to think the AAU is involved in anything but damage control. The fact remains that the fallout was bad enough from their fallen president that they now have to address the RB issue. That means like it or not RB will and should be a topic of discussion for the foreseeable future. The court opinion that is discussed states ..."The court did not address the substantive findings of USA Volleyball that Butler had engaged in the alleged misconduct." That means the appeal court (the document you are reading) and the original court. They are addressing the due process. Read it. The documents with testimony would be USA Volleyball Ethics Committee, not ANY United States Judicial System Court. USA Volleyball could makes these public to support their case? I doubt that since he no longer is involved with USA Volleyball.
Will the AAU and JVA make a decision on Rick Butler's continued participation in their associations? Maybe or maybe not. Time will tell.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2015 13:23:25 GMT -5
The court opinion that is discussed states ..."The court did not address the substantive findings of USA Volleyball that Butler had engaged in the alleged misconduct." That means the appeal court (the document you are reading) and the original court. They are addressing the due process. Read it. The documents with testimony would be USA Volleyball Ethics Committee, not ANY United States Judicial System Court.
Here is the link again for those to read the appeal. www.illinoiscourts.gov/opinions/AppellateCourt/1996/1stDistrict/November/HTML/1960743.txt Good luck finding the one cherry picked sentence, but you will find details from Justice Theis stated that the Justices reveiwed the USAV procedures all all the opportunities RB was given to rebut, cross examine and provide his side of the story. Yes, they found that USAV gave Butler more than generous due process before expelling him. Here are a few of the Judge's quotes. USA Volleyball's decision that Butler's behavior was unreasonable was not arbitrary. Further, the association's decision that it would be subject to public embarrassment because one of its best known members had sexual relations with minor players was not fundamentally unfair. Butler has made no allegation that USA Volleyball's disciplinary proceedings were conducted in bad faith or that the decision to expel Butler was made on the whim or caprice of certain association members. More to this point: Butler was notified of the regional hearing determination and the hearing date before the Ethics and Eligibility Committee (Ethics Committee). Butler was also provided with a copy of all materials submitted to the Ethics Committee. A de novo hearing was held before the Ethics Committee in July 1995. Butler again was represented by counsel and was given an opportunity to cross-examine the three complainants via questions asked of them through the committee chair. Butler also was allowed to present any and all witnesses who could testify regarding the alleged events. The Ethics Committee issued its decision, finding that Butler "had unprotected sexual intercourse and a subsequent physical and emotional relationship" with all three girls, two of whom were 16 at the time and the other 17. Accordingly, the Ethics Committee expelled Butler from USA Volleyball membership for life with the option of applying for conditional membership in five years. Butler appealed the decision to the Executive Committee of USA Volleyball which affirmed the decision of the Ethics Committee. Additional appeals to the Board of Directors and the Delegate Assembly of USA Volleyball were available. The parties, however, agreed to consider Butler's administrative appeals exhausted so that he could bring legal action AND THIS IS THE MOST DIFFICULT TO EXPLAIN AWAY: Butler's primary argument to the trial court was that the "public embarrassment" standard in USA Volleyball bylaws was insufficient to put him on notice that sexual relationships with minor girls whom he coached could be cause for expulsion. No denial of the actions, no caveat even, his lawyers argued this point, not USAV, not some internet forum, his counsel.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2015 13:28:08 GMT -5
Who exactly is the "we" that "already dismissed those"? Your comments don't inspire a lot of confidence in your credibility to someone new to this, so excuse me if I don't take your word for it and read it for myself. The court opinion is pretty clear. It would take quite a song and dance to explain it away to anybody who doesn't approach this topic with your strong bias. I am not naive enough to think the AAU is involved in anything but damage control. The fact remains that the fallout was bad enough from their fallen president that they now have to address the RB issue. That means like it or not RB will and should be a topic of discussion for the foreseeable future. The court opinion that is discussed states ..."The court did not address the substantive findings of USA Volleyball that Butler had engaged in the alleged misconduct." That means the appeal court (the document you are reading) and the original court. They are addressing the due process. Read it. The documents with testimony would be USA Volleyball Ethics Committee, not ANY United States Judicial System Court. USA Volleyball could makes these public to support their case? I doubt that since he no longer is involved with USA Volleyball.
Will the AAU and JVA make a decision on Rick Butler's continued participation in their associations? Maybe or maybe not. Time will tell.
The court did not address the findings but reviewed the entire process to ensure butler was given due process by USAV. The reason the court did not have to address the findings of USAV (that he molested three minor children under his care) is because butler's lawyers did not contest that. They instead argued that the molestation of children by a prominent coach in a youth athletic program "should not embarrass the program". Here is the direct quote from the appellate court judge. Butler's primary argument to the trial court was that the "public embarrassment" standard in USA Volleyball bylaws was insufficient to put him on notice that sexual relationships with minor girls whom he coached could be cause for expulsion.
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Post by volleytology on Sept 22, 2015 13:40:32 GMT -5
This is all good information regarding the case and the facts do I believe, speak for themselves. The only issue now is how JVA and AAU respond to this outcry; which only gained new notoriety with the ESPN piece. The accusations and facts in the case seem pretty concrete, and most everyone who has been around club or college volleyball for the past 30 years pretty much knew about this. The enabler question is actually a good one, but as has been suggested-- how far does it reach ? Also, since one of his accuser's sisters later also played for him, seems to indicate the enabling was disturbingly close to home. That fact was always a confusing issue for everyone on the outside looking in during those years. The thing to discuss is what action(s) {sanctioning bodies, SPRI itself, other coaches, parents of club players, etc} occurs from here on out ? Status quo or will this be the beginning of the end for the SPRI empire ?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2015 15:11:42 GMT -5
Who exactly is the "we" that "already dismissed those"? Your comments don't inspire a lot of confidence in your credibility to someone new to this, so excuse me if I don't take your word for it and read it for myself. The court opinion is pretty clear. It would take quite a song and dance to explain it away to anybody who doesn't approach this topic with your strong bias. I am not naive enough to think the AAU is involved in anything but damage control. The fact remains that the fallout was bad enough from their fallen president that they now have to address the RB issue. That means like it or not RB will and should be a topic of discussion for the foreseeable future. The court opinion that is discussed states ..."The court did not address the substantive findings of USA Volleyball that Butler had engaged in the alleged misconduct." That means the appeal court (the document you are reading) and the original court. They are addressing the due process. Read it. The documents with testimony would be USA Volleyball Ethics Committee, not ANY United States Judicial System Court. USA Volleyball could makes these public to support their case? I doubt that since he no longer is involved with USA Volleyball.
Will the AAU and JVA make a decision on Rick Butler's continued participation in their associations? Maybe or maybe not. Time will tell.
First, your quote came from the trial court opinion that was overturned and was quoted by the appellate court. BTW, what exactly was RB's argument to the trial court? According to the appellate court: "Butler's primary argument to the trial court was that the 'public embarrassment' standard in USA Volleyball bylaws was insufficient to put him on notice that sexual relationships with minor girls whom he coached could be cause for expulsion." That is a mighty odd argument to make for somebody that didn't have sex with minors. If I understand your song and dance, RB had a choice to make between 1) I didn't do anything wrong. and 2) How was I supposed to know that felony statutory rape would be against USAV ethical standards for coaching minor girls? It's not in the guidelines, so how could I possibly be expected to know? Refresh my memory. Which did he choose?
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Post by WahineFan44 on Sept 22, 2015 15:14:33 GMT -5
The Mods need to lock this thread. Its a mess. This thread should of died along time ago. its only the same thing going back and forth.
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Post by netdirector on Sept 22, 2015 15:19:23 GMT -5
The court opinion that is discussed states ..."The court did not address the substantive findings of USA Volleyball that Butler had engaged in the alleged misconduct." That means the appeal court (the document you are reading) and the original court. They are addressing the due process. Read it. The documents with testimony would be USA Volleyball Ethics Committee, not ANY United States Judicial System Court. USA Volleyball could makes these public to support their case? I doubt that since he no longer is involved with USA Volleyball.
Will the AAU and JVA make a decision on Rick Butler's continued participation in their associations? Maybe or maybe not. Time will tell.
First, your quote came from the trial court opinion that was overturned and was quoted by the appellate court. BTW, what exactly was RB's argument to the trial court? According to the appellate court: "Butler's primary argument to the trial court was that the 'public embarrassment' standard in USA Volleyball bylaws was insufficient to put him on notice that sexual relationships with minor girls whom he coached could be cause for expulsion." That is a mighty odd argument to make for somebody that didn't have sex with minors. If I understand your song and dance, RB had a choice to make between 1) I didn't do anything wrong. and 2) How was I supposed to know that felony statutory rape would be against USAV ethical standards for coaching minor girls? It's not in the guidelines, so how could I possibly be expected to know? Refresh my memory. Which did he choose? I believe he chose "All of the above"... and as far as #2 goes, if there wasn't a USAV Code of Ethics before, there certainly is now: www.greatlakesvolleyball.org/Documents/USAV%20Coaches%20Code%20of%20Ethics.pdfThis includes: D. Recognize the trust placed in, and the unique power of, the coach and athlete relationship. I will not exploit the dependency of athletes and will avoid dual relationships (e.g., business or close personal relationships) which could impair my professional judgment, compromise the integrity of the process and/or take advantage of the relationship for my own gain. E. Not engage in physical, verbal or emotional harassment, abusive words or actions, or exploitative coercion of current or former athletes. I will report any suspected cases of abuse to appropriate authorities immediately. F. All forms of sexual abuse, assault or harassment with athletes are illegal and unethical, even when an athlete invites or consents to such behavior or involvement. Sexual abuse and harassment is defined as, but not limited to, repeated comments, gestures or physical contacts of a sexual nature. I will report all suspected cases of sexual assault or abuse to law enforcement as required by law. Note it explicitly refers to current AND former athletes. My only question is whether this existed at the time of the abuse, or if this was put in place afterwards as a direct result.
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