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Post by mikegarrison on Jul 29, 2021 14:18:04 GMT -5
Honest question. This sounds like people here feel because gymnastics is dangerous that Biles pulling out was the right thing to do because her head wasn’t in the game. If it was a different sport would we feel the same? Would we all feel the same if our women’s volleyball team said,” you know, with China Eliminated there is to much pressure for us to win so we are going to pull out if the olympics…” Gymnastics is not comparable. That vault was honestly terrifying as a 20 year gym fan and continuing like that could have seriously injured like national gymnasts of years past This is why I brought up my mountaineering background. People who haven't done this sort of thing just don't get it. I was talking to another climber one time who was worried that her (BF? Husband? doesn't really matter) was on a climb that weekend (while she was an instructor in a wilderness first aid class I was taking). She said that when she complains about this stress to her non-climber friends, she gets responses like "Oh, I know! I'm a golf widow every weekend too." But what she is actually worried about is being a widow widow. Pressuring someone into doing something potentially deadly is just morally wrong -- at least in this sort of context. How many people DIE because they fluff an attack while playing volleyball?
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Post by staticb on Jul 29, 2021 14:31:46 GMT -5
Honest question. This sounds like people here feel because gymnastics is dangerous that Biles pulling out was the right thing to do because her head wasn’t in the game. If it was a different sport would we feel the same? Would we all feel the same if our women’s volleyball team said,” you know, with China Eliminated there is to much pressure for us to win so we are going to pull out if the olympics…” If it was like running or a solo sport, I might say "give it a try". I know when I played volleyball, I often had teammates who definitely weren't there mentally on the court. There were many times I would have liked them to step aside and let the next man up play instead of trying to "tough it out" and play terribly. Feel the same about coworkers who refuse to call in sick and are unproductive/get everyone sick etc.
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Post by c4ndlelight on Jul 29, 2021 15:11:29 GMT -5
Apparently Sunisa Lee used a fierce Haduken to blow away the competition.
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Gymnastics
Jul 29, 2021 15:32:46 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by cardinalvolleyball on Jul 29, 2021 15:32:46 GMT -5
I asked bc I only watch gymnastics once every four years and I never thought of it as terrifyingly dangerous. As a coach of a non-dangerous sport (Hayley Hodson would say otherwise) I am continually curious about this and the responses of our community.
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Post by gr8ful on Jul 29, 2021 16:36:03 GMT -5
A lot of sports are dangerous...I don't buy into that argument...people choose to do something they like...I would HOPE no one ever held a gun to Biles' head and said "damn you little girl, you will do this vault"...next, it's not like she hasn't done vaults, or balance beam, or uneven bars for years upon years....I am in no way criticizing her decision here either, she has a full right to say not feeling it, not going to do it....but don't come out and say how deadly the sport is when you have other sports far more dangerous and deadly....
Pressure didn't get to Elena Berezhnaya or Jessica Dubé...skiing is far more dangerous, anyone wants to debate me, go watch the video of Ulrike Maier dying on the mountain or Todd Brooker's wreck at Kitzbuehel first, come back and then I will completely crush your argument...the bottom line - you choose a sport to participate in, whether at the recreational level or professional level...you are responsible for taking into consideration the pros and cons of that participation...at anytime you don't want to do it for any reason, don't do it...If Biles sits the rest of the Olympics and calls it a career good for her, if she decides to try and participate next week and finishes first or last...good for her...it's her decision....
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Post by mervynpumpkinhead on Jul 29, 2021 17:25:11 GMT -5
I think things will be even more difficult if she tries to return next week. They’ll be even more pressure on her.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 29, 2021 17:53:20 GMT -5
A lot of sports are dangerous...I don't buy into that argument...people choose to do something they like...I would HOPE no one ever held a gun to Biles' head and said "damn you little girl, you will do this vault"...next, it's not like she hasn't done vaults, or balance beam, or uneven bars for years upon years....I am in no way criticizing her decision here either, she has a full right to say not feeling it, not going to do it....but don't come out and say how deadly the sport is when you have other sports far more dangerous and deadly.... Pressure didn't get to Elena Berezhnaya or Jessica Dubé...skiing is far more dangerous, anyone wants to debate me, go watch the video of Ulrike Maier dying on the mountain or Todd Brooker's wreck at Kitzbuehel first, come back and then I will completely crush your argument...the bottom line - you choose a sport to participate in, whether at the recreational level or professional level...you are responsible for taking into consideration the pros and cons of that participation...at anytime you don't want to do it for any reason, don't do it...If Biles sits the rest of the Olympics and calls it a career good for her, if she decides to try and participate next week and finishes first or last...good for her...it's her decision.... Shut up. You sound dumb and posted it with such confidence. Be embarrassed.
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Post by gr8ful on Jul 29, 2021 18:28:05 GMT -5
A lot of sports are dangerous...I don't buy into that argument...people choose to do something they like...I would HOPE no one ever held a gun to Biles' head and said "damn you little girl, you will do this vault"...next, it's not like she hasn't done vaults, or balance beam, or uneven bars for years upon years....I am in no way criticizing her decision here either, she has a full right to say not feeling it, not going to do it....but don't come out and say how deadly the sport is when you have other sports far more dangerous and deadly.... Pressure didn't get to Elena Berezhnaya or Jessica Dubé...skiing is far more dangerous, anyone wants to debate me, go watch the video of Ulrike Maier dying on the mountain or Todd Brooker's wreck at Kitzbuehel first, come back and then I will completely crush your argument...the bottom line - you choose a sport to participate in, whether at the recreational level or professional level...you are responsible for taking into consideration the pros and cons of that participation...at anytime you don't want to do it for any reason, don't do it...If Biles sits the rest of the Olympics and calls it a career good for her, if she decides to try and participate next week and finishes first or last...good for her...it's her decision.... Shut up. You sound dumb and posted it with such confidence. Be embarrassed. LOL...you obviously know so very little about other sports, it's ok...I'm 100% confident because I'm 100% correct on this...if you don't think she has a right to decide to quit or not, that's up to you...if you want to make the argument gymnastics is the most dangerous sport on the planet you are a complete moron...the only thing I'm embarrassed by is responding to your ignorant post...now go piss off you uneducated loser...
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Post by gr8ful on Jul 29, 2021 18:30:54 GMT -5
Stick this one out. That is the terrifying thing about that. She couldn’t vault anymore. When the 5x gold medalist In vault, loses herself in the air and does a 1.5 and a 2.5 and because she is so high basically plummets out the air and is still twisting. You can’t continue when you don’t know where you are. I have watched her for years and never seen anything like it. Because she is Simone biles and so strong, she was able to somehow land without breaking anything. She must be going through to just lose it like that because she is tough. She competed with a kidney stone in 2019. She won 5 medals and then passed it last week. If she could have continued , she would have. And also you can learn about the gymnasts who pushed through and paralyzed themselves. Don’t discredit the danger of gym. Especially the danger she is in by being so high and doing the hardest gymnastics. Not discounting the dangers of it at all, my point is don't just throw that one out "oh, it's so dangerous" when there are numerous other sports that are participated in - sports in which people have died in competition...the bottom line, it doesn't matter the reason, it's her choice...
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Post by guest2 on Jul 29, 2021 19:00:31 GMT -5
A lot of sports are dangerous...I don't buy into that argument...people choose to do something they like...I would HOPE no one ever held a gun to Biles' head and said "damn you little girl, you will do this vault"...next, it's not like she hasn't done vaults, or balance beam, or uneven bars for years upon years....I am in no way criticizing her decision here either, she has a full right to say not feeling it, not going to do it....but don't come out and say how deadly the sport is when you have other sports far more dangerous and deadly.... Pressure didn't get to Elena Berezhnaya or Jessica Dubé...skiing is far more dangerous, anyone wants to debate me, go watch the video of Ulrike Maier dying on the mountain or Todd Brooker's wreck at Kitzbuehel first, come back and then I will completely crush your argument...the bottom line - you choose a sport to participate in, whether at the recreational level or professional level...you are responsible for taking into consideration the pros and cons of that participation...at anytime you don't want to do it for any reason, don't do it...If Biles sits the rest of the Olympics and calls it a career good for her, if she decides to try and participate next week and finishes first or last...good for her...it's her decision.... Simone Biles came up in a USA system run, in part at least, by the Karolyis. They were notorious for doing exactly what you mentioned, forcing little girls to do things they were scared of, too injured to do, etc. etc. For example Kristie Phillips was forced to train with a broken wrist. There are many, many other examples. Gymnastics has probably been the sport that has been most consistently unhealthy for girls and women over the last 40 years or so. Other sports may have more deaths, but the overall health impacts on contestants? Also in terms of your "they chose this" argument, gymnasts have traditionally started at an elite level extremely young. Blaming athletes for falling into an abusive world as 7 year olds is not particularly convincing
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Post by gr8ful on Jul 29, 2021 22:21:57 GMT -5
A lot of sports are dangerous...I don't buy into that argument...people choose to do something they like...I would HOPE no one ever held a gun to Biles' head and said "damn you little girl, you will do this vault"...next, it's not like she hasn't done vaults, or balance beam, or uneven bars for years upon years....I am in no way criticizing her decision here either, she has a full right to say not feeling it, not going to do it....but don't come out and say how deadly the sport is when you have other sports far more dangerous and deadly.... Pressure didn't get to Elena Berezhnaya or Jessica Dubé...skiing is far more dangerous, anyone wants to debate me, go watch the video of Ulrike Maier dying on the mountain or Todd Brooker's wreck at Kitzbuehel first, come back and then I will completely crush your argument...the bottom line - you choose a sport to participate in, whether at the recreational level or professional level...you are responsible for taking into consideration the pros and cons of that participation...at anytime you don't want to do it for any reason, don't do it...If Biles sits the rest of the Olympics and calls it a career good for her, if she decides to try and participate next week and finishes first or last...good for her...it's her decision.... Simone Biles came up in a USA system run, in part at least, by the Karolyis. They were notorious for doing exactly what you mentioned, forcing little girls to do things they were scared of, too injured to do, etc. etc. For example Kristie Phillips was forced to train with a broken wrist. There are many, many other examples. Gymnastics has probably been the sport that has been most consistently unhealthy for girls and women over the last 40 years or so. Other sports may have more deaths, but the overall health impacts on contestants? Also in terms of your "they chose this" argument, gymnasts have traditionally started at an elite level extremely young. Blaming athletes for falling into an abusive world as 7 year olds is not particularly convincing I do not believe blame was being placed upon anyone, and I would also hardly call 7 year old athletes...they are just that...seven year olds...not competing on a world stage, at the highest levels. Also, other athletes have started their "training" at significantly younger ages (Andre Agassi was serving on a full size court at age 2, Steffi Graf started playing tennis at the age of 3, Novak Djokovic at age 4, Phelps started swimming at age 7 - I can go on and on and on and on, so no gymnastics is not the only sport in which they start them young)....you are also twisting the argument, so allow me to straighten it out for you.... 1) Overall health impacts on contestants...66 percent of women’s “catastrophic injuries” (the ones resulting in permanent disabilities and conditions) are sustained in this sport...do you know what it is? It's not gymnastics....it's Cheerleading....overall for kids - soccer, football, basketball, hockey all had higher rates of injuries....now, gymnastics did come in with a much higher rate of spinal injuries - which were found to be far more common among girls, accounting for more than three-fourths of the total injuries. 2) Despite the fact these infant athletes begin there path to stardom at such young ages, as they become "older" (i.e. teens) they usually have decisions to make...carry on with a specific sport, change sports, quit sports...so yes, athletes do have a choice by the time they are reaching a world stage as if they will continue pursuing that path, or if they would decide to stop. Someone participating at the Olympic level, on a professional level, on the international stage will have probably started their journey at an extremely young age, but had to make a decisions on whether to continue pursuing that goal....otherwise, if they are being forced, you would need to look at the parents. You mention Kristie Phillips - didn't she decide to go BACK to the Karolyis in '88 in an effort to qualify for Seoul after she left them and went through a few other coaches? Hmmm...she made a decision to return to them? Or was it her parents? Or maybe the Karolyis who just wanted to call her a fat has been some more (BTW, do you know what sport she decided to go into at college?). 3) Again - and this is the most important part - there are numerous sports out there that are more dangerous than gymnastics...athletes who choose a sport, and are able to compete at an elite level understand the risks they are taking participating in those sports, so a sport being "dangerous" needs to be taken out of the discussion...IF at anytime they decide to choose to stop participating, for whatever reason, it is their decision...the decision can be for anything - they're tired, have anxiety, bored, they want to do something else, fear they will let the team down..it's their decision...and that decision should be supported. Now, on a complete side track - if you want to talk about overall corruption, scandals, etc. that gymnastics has....that is not the fault of the 7 year old "athlete", or the 20 year old Olympian...and that is a totally different topic...
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Post by guest2 on Jul 30, 2021 7:14:59 GMT -5
I do not believe blame was being placed upon anyone, and I would also hardly call 7 year old athletes...they are just that...seven year olds...not competing on a world stage, at the highest levels. Also, other athletes have started their "training" at significantly younger ages (Andre Agassi was serving on a full size court at age 2, Steffi Graf started playing tennis at the age of 3, Novak Djokovic at age 4, Phelps started swimming at age 7 - I can go on and on and on and on, so no gymnastics is not the only sport in which they start them young)....you are also twisting the argument, so allow me to straighten it out for you.... This is a problem with your argument, you compare Phelps swimming at 7, to top gymnasts at 7. There just isn't a comparison. Some of the abusive stuff historically associated with tennis, ok maybe, although tennis is not inherently bad for the body the way gymnastics is, but the swimming comparison is nonsense. At 7, or 10, or even older, top swimmers are not being screamed at, belittled by, or forced to compete through injuries by Olympic level coaches who control every element of their daily lives. In gymnastics? That has tapered off some very recently, but thats the history of gymnastics. 1) Overall health impacts on contestants...66 percent of women’s “catastrophic injuries” (the ones resulting in permanent disabilities and conditions) are sustained in this sport...do you know what it is? It's not gymnastics....it's Cheerleading....overall for kids - soccer, football, basketball, hockey all had higher rates of injuries....now, gymnastics did come in with a much higher rate of spinal injuries - which were found to be far more common among girls, accounting for more than three-fourths of the total injuries. Higher rates or higher numbers? And what injuries? Cheerleading I will concede, although its basically gymnastics in a different form and much of it, like gymnastics, is fundamentally bad for the human body in a way that those other sports are not. For example, if a high-level soccer player trains the way their coaches want, but never suffers an injury, five years after they stop playing, there is nothing wrong with them. Gymnasts who train the way their coaches want often have stunted growth, amenorrhea and other issues associated with the delayed onset of puberty and insufficient nutrition, etc. There is a reason gymnasts all sort of look the same and a large part of it is because the way they train affects their development negatively. Gymnastics is very similar to cycling, and unlike many other sports in that the fundamentals of how you train and prepare for it are, even when nothing goes wrong, bad for the human body. Hard to say that about soccer or hockey2) Despite the fact these infant athletes begin there path to stardom at such young ages, as they become "older" (i.e. teens) they usually have decisions to make...carry on with a specific sport, change sports, quit sports...so yes, athletes do have a choice by the time they are reaching a world stage as if they will continue pursuing that path, or if they would decide to stop. Someone participating at the Olympic level, on a professional level, on the international stage will have probably started their journey at an extremely young age, but had to make a decisions on whether to continue pursuing that goal....otherwise, if they are being forced, you would need to look at the parents. You mention Kristie Phillips - didn't she decide to go BACK to the Karolyis in '88 in an effort to qualify for Seoul after she left them and went through a few other coaches? Hmmm...she made a decision to return to them? Or was it her parents? Or maybe the Karolyis who just wanted to call her a fat has been some more (BTW, do you know what sport she decided to go into at college?). So Kristy Phillips can't be blamed for subjecting herself to abuse based on a choice made before she was 10, but its ok to judge her based on making that same decision at 14 is ok? Every argument you make here would apply to child labor in factories.3) Again - and this is the most important part - there are numerous sports out there that are more dangerous than gymnastics...athletes who choose a sport, and are able to compete at an elite level understand the risks they are taking participating in those sports, so a sport being "dangerous" needs to be taken out of the discussion...IF at anytime they decide to choose to stop participating, for whatever reason, it is their decision...the decision can be for anything - they're tired, have anxiety, bored, they want to do something else, fear they will let the team down..it's their decision...and that decision should be supported. Now, on a complete side track - if you want to talk about overall corruption, scandals, etc. that gymnastics has....that is not the fault of the 7 year old "athlete", or the 20 year old Olympian...and that is a totally different topic... Answered some in the body of your post You see the corruption, scandals etc. as distinct from the sport itself, but they aren't. In soccer for example, its possible to train an elite player in a non-abusive setting where adults don't have an excessive amount of control over little girls. If the period from the 70s to today has taught us anything about gymnastics its that the abuse is not an unpleasant side effect that needs to be eliminated so the sport can prosper, its a built in component of the sport. During the 2000s there have been any number of reforms, which is why you now see older athletes etc. competing, but the abuse has never stopped and exists, and has always existed, at a level that is hard to match in any other women's sport. Why? Because without it the sport wouldn't work. Abuse-free gymnastics would be like natural bodybuilding Realistically there are several sports that should be banned and gymnastics is one of them. Edit: As gr8ful graciously pointed out privately, I miscalculated Kristie Phillips' age when she went back to the Karolyis. She was 16, I would argue that doesnt really change anything and both Bela and Marta should still be stood against a wall and shot, but mea culpa on the mistake
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Post by bigjohn043 on Jul 30, 2021 8:46:55 GMT -5
This is a woman who walked around for years with a goat on her leotard. In interviews, she wasn't shy about telling people that she was the best.
Then she comes to the Olympics and she starts to struggle. She lost her nerve. Frankly, she choked.
Now this doesn't make her a bad person. Pressure is hard to deal with and we all know that. But lets not ignore the role her hubris played. Pride goeth before the fall. She talked a lot of smack and when she struggled to back it up the pressure must have been tremendous.
I think it is also fair to say that great champions thrive under the pressure. They want to take the last shot. They want the ball with two minutes left needing to drive the field to win the game.
I don't know if there is something special about the "twisties" in gymnastics. I do know that I can't think of another gymnast pulling out of an Olympics because of them. Or any other major competition for that matter.
Now once she choked I don't know if the right answer was to quit. Gymnastics is certainly dangerous and there is no doubt that if you can't commit mentally to really attacking a trick you can really hurt yourself. Maybe she was right to quit once she lost her nerve.
FWIW, I agree with the idea that the whole idea of the sport is pretty dangerous. The things these girls do are very dangerous and the human body doesn't naturally do them. My guess is that a big part of coaching here is getting your gymnast to commit to doing things that are inherently very dangerous. My guess is pushing people is the only way this happens. That has issues.
But I also think people should be free to pursue what they want to do. Mountaineering is a great example. It is incredibly dangerous and lots of people die doing it. But who says they shouldn't be able to climb a mountain or rock face if that is what they want to do.....
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Gymnastics
Jul 30, 2021 20:50:16 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by tamz on Jul 30, 2021 20:50:16 GMT -5
Simone Biles have withdrawn from the first two individual events: Uneven Bars and The Vault. To be replaced by McKayla Skinner.
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Post by lionsfan on Jul 30, 2021 20:55:22 GMT -5
Simone Biles have withdrawn from the first two individual events: Uneven Bars and The Vault. To be replaced by McKayla Skinner. On vault; I think a Frenchwoman will replace her on bars. The 2-per-country rule really scre#@! the Russians on bars. They had all 4 in the top 8.
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