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Post by AmeriCanVBfan on Jun 24, 2024 8:31:02 GMT -5
I've read enough of Frank's comments to know that whatever he says shouldn't be equated as him being the spokesperson for the GOP. I didn't see that he equated BLM with J6. The only parallel, I can see, would be that people at both events took what started as a protest and bastardized it into a riot. Nowhere in that statement that you took from Wiki indicates that right-wing media is the reason White Americans' support of BLM has waned. The so-called "Leader of my party" didn't buy fancy mansions with the donations of his supporters (to the best of my knowledge). My not seeing eye to eye with the leaders of BLM and how they choose to "promote" their message is not the same as not seeing eye to eye with their objective. Something else that you've, not surprisingly, conflated. I wouldn't say Frank "equated" BLM and Jan 6th. He called BLM an insurrection (a label he did not apply to Jan 6th), and said it was worse than Jan 6th, pointing to "cities burning down". My mention of equivalence derived from Frank bringing up BLM in response to taking heat on Jan 6th. Edit: I'm speaking of the thread titled "Election Denier", which is now on page 2 of this forum. Frank mentions BLM on page 2 of that thread, and the thread continues for 10 more pages. BLM tried to protest peaceably, just as they had done many times before. Arson broke out. The right-wing media expended great effort to tie the damages that happened during the BLM protest to the BLM themselves. They did this in the usual way, by showing film of burning and looting in the same breath as they talked about the BLM. The problem is, that afterwards there doesn't seem to be much of a connection between the people who got caught and BLM. So why should they get the blame? It is true that the Wikipedia article does not say that the loss of support for the BLM among white people was due to the right-wing media. You have to use your brain here. If the group's name is normally associated in the media with protests over black citizens getting unfairly killed by policemen, and then suddenly a period occurs where their name is associated with arson and looting, then you should be able to realize that there is a linkage. As for the mansion, take note of the length of the Wikipedia entry on the BLM, and how little is devoted to the mansion. It's small potatoes. You are making a mountain out of a molehill in pushing that line and not giving them credit for the good things they've done. Yes, you indeed are sullying their reputation. It's a choice. And not a particularly good one, in my opinion. I'm not aware of any donations to Trump being used to buy mansions. On the other hand, donations to him have been used towards handling his legal fees, so he could stall out the trials for as many of his indictments as possible until after the election. This seems worse to me. Trump even redirected monies meant for the GOP as a whole to his legal fees. Once those lawyers get paid, the money is gone. But that BLM mansion can always be sold. So why are you fixated on it? Vark you're ignoring a point to try and make a point, ESPECIALLY where "White America's" support of BLM is concerned. DO YOU THINK the majority of people who watch right wing media were also BLM supporters? I don't, not even close. You say I've "sullied" BLM's reputation. What IS their reputation? What change have they affected. What laws have they helped pass? If they have kudos to them (possibly) but I haven't seen much in terms of their outcome. Who is George Floyd's brother talking to when he talks about people destroying their own community, in this clip?
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Post by aardvark on Jun 24, 2024 12:18:44 GMT -5
Vark you're ignoring a point to try and make a point, ESPECIALLY where "White America's" support of BLM is concerned. DO YOU THINK the majority of people who watch right wing media were also BLM supporters? I don't, not even close. You say I've "sullied" BLM's reputation. What IS their reputation? What change have they affected. What laws have they helped pass? If they have kudos to them (possibly) but I haven't seen much in terms of their outcome. Who is George Floyd's brother talking to when he talks about people destroying their own community, in this clip? I find your point irrelevant. Sympathy for BLM rose over years, as they protested peaceably about a series of unwarranted black deaths at the hands of police, caught on video. This culminated in 2020, when the George Floyd's death protests coincided with extensive arson and rioting. Trying to link the loss of support for BLM to money mismanagement doesn't fit the timeline, as that news hit in 2022, after support for BLM had cratered (details can be found on this under the Wikipedia entry for Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation, which is linked to from the BLM entry). The reason for the loss of support is not worth discussing. It was obviously due to the video of arson and rioting that was shown extensively during 2020, and always talked about as coinciding with the BLM protests. Isn't it interesting that BLM protests were peaceful right up until the majority of whites supported them, and then suddenly there was one that had a lot of associated violence that cratered that support? BLM isn't going to accomplish anything without white support. They simply lack the political power within their own skin color. They have to convince the whites first for real change to happen. This is made harder when many conservative groups/individuals actively work against them, trying to make them look like bad guys. Sound familiar?
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Post by AmeriCanVBfan on Jun 25, 2024 7:59:51 GMT -5
Vark you're ignoring a point to try and make a point, ESPECIALLY where "White America's" support of BLM is concerned. DO YOU THINK the majority of people who watch right wing media were also BLM supporters? I don't, not even close. You say I've "sullied" BLM's reputation. What IS their reputation? What change have they affected. What laws have they helped pass? If they have kudos to them (possibly) but I haven't seen much in terms of their outcome. Who is George Floyd's brother talking to when he talks about people destroying their own community, in this clip? I find your point irrelevant. Sympathy for BLM rose over years, as they protested peaceably about a series of unwarranted black deaths at the hands of police, caught on video. This culminated in 2020, when the George Floyd's death protests coincided with extensive arson and rioting. Trying to link the loss of support for BLM to money mismanagement doesn't fit the timeline, as that news hit in 2022, after support for BLM had cratered (details can be found on this under the Wikipedia entry for Black Lives Matter Global Network Foundation, which is linked to from the BLM entry). The reason for the loss of support is not worth discussing. It was obviously due to the video of arson and rioting that was shown extensively during 2020, and always talked about as coinciding with the BLM protests. Isn't it interesting that BLM protests were peaceful right up until the majority of whites supported them, and then suddenly there was one that had a lot of associated violence that cratered that support? BLM isn't going to accomplish anything without white support. They simply lack the political power within their own skin color. They have to convince the whites first for real change to happen. This is made harder when many conservative groups/individuals actively work against them, trying to make them look like bad guys. Sound familiar? It seems that you're going to stubbornly (and foolishly) cling to the notion that the decrease in BLM support is because of right wing media. There's no logical way for you to connect those dots but it seems like you're going to try, regardless. The so-called "peaceable" protests in cities like St. Louis, Louisville, and Minneapolis fueled nighttime riots, but you say that these events have merely "coincided" with each other. Like, after BLM went home, the White people came out and started burning stuff down. Speaking of which, on the on hand you blame "Whites" for protests turning into riots while on the other hand claiming that BLM needs "Whites" for political clout. Weird, to me, that you paint Whites as both the problem and the solution. Maybe they are but I saw a lot of Black people walking in and out of Target looting and lookinf for property to destroy. I suggest BLM look to and partner with Politicians of Color (I'm pointing to "The Squad") to help them gain political traction. Plus, it would be good for The Squad to focus on things other than pulling fire alarms and hopping around at campaign rallies, trying to live out their rapper fantasies. Anyhoo, there aren't many leaves left on this mulberry bush, I leave the last word to you (maybe ).
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Post by oldnewbie on Jun 26, 2024 16:10:38 GMT -5
It's not about trying to narrow the scope or significance of Juneteenth, it's about making sure as many people as possible know the true meaning of Juneteenth. When ignorant people like Gomez are educated, they can't rely on their "racist schtick" because it then becomes an untruth. All I'm saying is that the foundation from which you want to build upon (And by all means, please do! All that you mentioned is a necessary part of the conversation.) is shaky and needs to be settled first. That way the uninformed don't just think of it as day where they got time and a half at work or see it as a "Black person's July 4th". It's kind of the same as when people joke/complain about Black History Month being the shortest month of the year, but them not knowing WHY February was chosen. Here is a really good discussion of what I think you incorrectly leave out of this discussion. You adamantly want leave it out of talk about Juneteenth, which is exactly this time period. If not during discussion of Juneteenth, then when? There are very interesting parallels to now, with SCOTUS support of states rights to trample on personal freedoms. You seem to have an enormous blind spot for this particular history. I'm going to flag bluepenquin because they have also demonstrated huge blinders and refusal to acknowledge this particular history, why it still impacts black communities today and the parallels between SCOTUS allowing states to strip individual rights post-reconstruction, and what is happening today. This is from a foreign born Indian historian, which makes the perspective as an outsider quite interesting.
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Post by AmeriCanVBfan on Jun 27, 2024 1:16:34 GMT -5
It's not about trying to narrow the scope or significance of Juneteenth, it's about making sure as many people as possible know the true meaning of Juneteenth. When ignorant people like Gomez are educated, they can't rely on their "racist schtick" because it then becomes an untruth. All I'm saying is that the foundation from which you want to build upon (And by all means, please do! All that you mentioned is a necessary part of the conversation.) is shaky and needs to be settled first. That way the uninformed don't just think of it as day where they got time and a half at work or see it as a "Black person's July 4th". It's kind of the same as when people joke/complain about Black History Month being the shortest month of the year, but them not knowing WHY February was chosen. You adamantly want leave it out of talk about Juneteenth, which is exactly this time period. It's not that I adamantly want to leave it out, it's that, imo, most people don't know the significance of Juneteenth and why it exists. Let's start by cementing that first, and other discussions after that. How about during the month of February?
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Post by oldnewbie on Jun 27, 2024 1:58:32 GMT -5
You adamantly want leave it out of talk about Juneteenth, which is exactly this time period. It's not that I adamantly want to leave it out, it's that, imo, most people don't know the significance of Juneteenth and why it exists. Let's start by cementing that first, and other discussions after that. How about during the month of February? Did you listen to any of it, or was juneteenth enough for you, and you will barely think about it again in a year?
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Post by AmeriCanVBfan on Jun 27, 2024 8:21:08 GMT -5
It's not that I adamantly want to leave it out, it's that, imo, most people don't know the significance of Juneteenth and why it exists. Let's start by cementing that first, and other discussions after that. How about during the month of February? Did you listen to any of it, or was juneteenth enough for you, and you will barely think about it again in a year? I started it but I didn't finish it yet. Black American history (which as far as I'm concerned should be seen as simply American history) is something that I try to familiarize myself with on other occasions than February and one day in June. You should look at the very first post I started this thread with.
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Post by oldnewbie on Jun 27, 2024 10:54:12 GMT -5
I started it but I didn't finish it yet. Black American history (which as far as I'm concerned should be seen as simply American history) is something that I try to familiarize myself with on other occasions than February and one day in June. You should look at the very first post I started this thread with. So, you started off encouraging people to learn about Tulsa, around 1920, over 50 years later, but learning about the events that immediately followed and were in response to juneteenth are out of scope? The events today have a lot in common with events then, with the supreme court refusing to protect freedoms, but leave it to the states, who basically protected domestic terrorists. There is a reason Alito cherry picked the SCOTUS of that era when overturning Roe, and ignored all the prior precedents and the last 50 years. That is the era that began restrictive voting laws, which some states are trying to bring back today.
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Post by AmeriCanVBfan on Jun 27, 2024 11:54:31 GMT -5
I started it but I didn't finish it yet. Black American history (which as far as I'm concerned should be seen as simply American history) is something that I try to familiarize myself with on other occasions than February and one day in June. You should look at the very first post I started this thread with. So, you started off encouraging people to learn about Tulsa, around 1920, over 50 years later, but learning about the events that immediately followed and were in response to juneteenth are out of scope? The events today have a lot in common with events then, with the supreme court refusing to protect freedoms, but leave it to the states, who basically protected domestic terrorists. There is a reason Alito cherry picked the SCOTUS of that era when overturning Roe, and ignored all the prior precedents and the last 50 years. That is the era that began restrictive voting laws, which some states are trying to bring back today. Actually I never encouraged anyone to learn about Tulsa. I said to acquaint yourselves with Juneteenth first and what it’s about. AFTER doing that, I encouraged people to broaden their knowledge. Seeing people talk about events before and after Juneteenth cause me to wonder if they know the significance of the event. Seeing people wanting to name it something else definitely causes me to wonder. The parallels that you draw between the events that caused Juneteenth to come about and present day events are not one that I’m particularly focused on, though I’m guessing that we’re not returning to the days when African Americans had to correctly guess how many jellybeans are in a jar to be able to vote anytime soon.
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Post by aardvark on Jun 27, 2024 12:21:09 GMT -5
So, you started off encouraging people to learn about Tulsa, around 1920, over 50 years later, but learning about the events that immediately followed and were in response to juneteenth are out of scope? The events today have a lot in common with events then, with the supreme court refusing to protect freedoms, but leave it to the states, who basically protected domestic terrorists. There is a reason Alito cherry picked the SCOTUS of that era when overturning Roe, and ignored all the prior precedents and the last 50 years. That is the era that began restrictive voting laws, which some states are trying to bring back today. Actually I never encouraged anyone to learn about Tulsa. I said to acquaint yourselves with Juneteenth first and what it’s about. AFTER doing that, I encouraged people to broaden their knowledge. Seeing people talk about events before and after Juneteenth cause me to wonder if they know the significance of the event. Seeing people wanting to name it something else definitely causes me to wonder. The parallels that you draw between the events that caused Juneteenth to come about and present day events are not one that I’m particularly focused on, though I’m guessing that we’re not returning to the days when African Americans had to correctly guess how many jellybeans are in a jar to be able to vote anytime soon. Just remember, blacks got to vote before women did. Women still don't have equal rights.
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Post by AmeriCanVBfan on Jun 27, 2024 12:31:25 GMT -5
Actually I never encouraged anyone to learn about Tulsa. I said to acquaint yourselves with Juneteenth first and what it’s about. AFTER doing that, I encouraged people to broaden their knowledge. Seeing people talk about events before and after Juneteenth cause me to wonder if they know the significance of the event. Seeing people wanting to name it something else definitely causes me to wonder. The parallels that you draw between the events that caused Juneteenth to come about and present day events are not one that I’m particularly focused on, though I’m guessing that we’re not returning to the days when African Americans had to correctly guess how many jellybeans are in a jar to be able to vote anytime soon. Just remember, blacks got to vote before women did. Women still don't have equal rights. Then it really is unfortunate to be a Black woman.
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Post by aardvark on Jun 27, 2024 16:20:14 GMT -5
We could make it even worse for our hypothetical by saying they are Muslim, homosexual, and disabled in a way that prevents them from holding a job.
Did I miss anything?
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Post by oldnewbie on Jun 28, 2024 12:56:18 GMT -5
Actually I never encouraged anyone to learn about Tulsa. In your initial post in this thread about Juneteenth, you literally said: "I've been curious lately about the origins of Black Wall Street and I may check that out today". Apparently you did not, or you would know that Black Wall Street was in Tulsa, The parallels that you draw between the events that caused Juneteenth to come about and present day events are not one that I’m particularly focused on, though I’m guessing that we’re not returning to the days when African Americans had to correctly guess how many jellybeans are in a jar to be able to vote anytime soon. The parallels that you draw between the events that caused Juneteenth to come about and present day events are not one that I’m particularly focused on, though I’m guessing that we’re not returning to the days when African Americans had to correctly guess how many jellybeans are in a jar to be able to vote anytime soon.[/quote] I lost a long answer to this due to a time-out, so I will it for you not to explore the myriad laws that have been instituted by Republicans in a concerted effort to suppress the vote of certain groups, including laws that were just rejected in Idaho by their state court (but they will try again), laws that led to innocent voters in Florida to be arrested at gun point. You joke about jelly beans while many would prefer that to the 8 hour lines to vote in some precincts in Texas with high and dense minority populations. The other parallel is a SCOTUS that takes granted liberties and returns them to the states, which then turned a blind eye to domestic terrorist groups like the KKK and Red Shirts. You hear a lot of the same sentiments repeated today that you heard then, Remember how the Republicans had "poll watchers" sitting nearby polls with guns? That is what the Red Shirts did in North Carolina in 1998: From Wiki: The week before the 1898 election, the Red Shirts' activities were non-stop, and the threats were so recurrent that many Republicans and Fusionist speakers canceled their engagements; the entire Republican Fusion ticket withdrew in New Hanover County. A few days before the election on November 2, 1898, the Morning Star newspaper of Wilmington reported a large rally with the Red Shirt affiliate Claude Kitchin as the fiery speaker. The rally involved 1,000 men with red shirts who marched for 10 miles in the predominantly black areas of Richmond County, North Carolina. Their goal was "to show their determination to rid themselves of Negro rule". The paper reported that "many Negroes [had] taken their names from the registration list." During the November 8, 1898, election, Red Shirts enforced their previous activities by riding around the voting precincts on their horses, with rifles and shotguns ready, to deter all Republicans, Fusionists and African Americans from the polls. The Red Shirts' activity helped the Democrats win with a 25,000 majority, as headlined in the News and Observer. A large celebration on November 15 was organized by Josephus Daniels to commemorate "white supremacy and rescuing the state from Negro-rule"
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Post by AmeriCanVBfan on Jun 28, 2024 13:03:01 GMT -5
oldnewbie I know Black Wall Street happened in Tulsa. Where did I encourage anyone to read about? I said I was going to read more about it but I never encouraged anyone to do the same. EDIT—- Also do have you a link about voting lines in Texas please?
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Post by AmeriCanVBfan on Jun 28, 2024 13:08:46 GMT -5
We could make it even worse for our hypothetical by saying they are Muslim, homosexual, and disabled in a way that prevents them from holding a job. Did I miss anything? Muslim AND homosexual? That’s gotta be rough.
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