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Post by avid 2.0 on Aug 17, 2022 21:05:37 GMT -5
how much does USA basketball support the NBA? I actually don't know much about that its probably NBA supporting USA basketball loool
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Post by HandeBallerdın on Aug 17, 2022 21:07:24 GMT -5
The big problem is economics and what is expected of American sports leagues (that being general parity above all else). That parity does not exist top to bottom in the “big leagues”, theres some teams with an advantage over others and needs to be so that they can compete with the top teams from other countries in order to get the worlds best players.
An american league would reject this notion and end up fumbling in mediocrity like MLS, without a big money national team to keep it funded.
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Post by HandeBallerdın on Aug 17, 2022 21:07:49 GMT -5
how much does USA basketball support the NBA? I actually don't know much about that basketball fans fund the nba….and lets be honest in the long run that is the only sustainable option
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Post by baytree on Aug 17, 2022 21:07:53 GMT -5
I use the WNBA to estimate the cost. It seems like the cost of a volleyball league would be comparable. A few articles said the WNBA costs $70 M a year with current losses around 10 M/year. I'd guess the losses would be larger for volleyball, at least for the first few years. The question is where to get the initial capital and then who would subsidize it over at least 10-20 years, so it has a chance to catch on. Athletics companies would probably help sponsor teams but who else? How successful was Amazon when it streamed beach volleyball? I guess Bally's owns the AVP now so there is some interest in paying for streaming rights. Would Google (YouTube) or Apple be interested? fair enough re: WNBA comparison. I like the idea of a bus league to control some of thsoe costs. No need to have teams all over country just becasue thats what other leagues do. Womans league in Italy is mostly northern-based teams. Where would you put it? I think the midwest makes sense for getting viewers. Ideally no pro teams to compete with but a large enough fan base to sell out matches.
How much would you save using a bus league vs flying commercial?
Northern Italy is a lot more populated than most of the USA. The cities are a lot less spread out. I don't think the two are comparable
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Post by bubbrubb on Aug 17, 2022 21:52:34 GMT -5
fair enough re: WNBA comparison. I like the idea of a bus league to control some of thsoe costs. No need to have teams all over country just becasue thats what other leagues do. Womans league in Italy is mostly northern-based teams. Where would you put it? I think the midwest makes sense for getting viewers. Ideally no pro teams to compete with but a large enough fan base to sell out matches.
How much would you save using a bus league vs flying commercial?
Northern Italy is a lot more populated than most of the USA. The cities are a lot less spread out. I don't think the two are comparable
I'd say anywhere with a cluster of midmajor cities. TX strikes me first and foremost. An upper Midwest league would be intriguing pulling from IA,NE,SD,MN,ND,WI and maybe throw a team up in Winnipeg for fun. Being bussable and local is important I think. I like the idea of seeing branded buses on regional interstates, driving billboard in essence. A plane-league only creates distant between competing clubs and doesn't nurture any rivalry. Maybe that happens in time, but crawl before walk.
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Post by vbnerd on Aug 17, 2022 22:03:50 GMT -5
Thoughts A) There was a graphic a few months ago which was just all the NFL teams that have popped up, folded, moved, and merged over the years. We think of the NFL since the Super Bowl in 1967. Before that pro football was incredibly unstable. The NBA was similarly unstable until practically 1980. There is a maxim about don't compare your step 1 to someone else's step 20 or something like that. Same here, we cannot just create an NBA/NFL overnight. That is a 15-20 year (or more) goal. B) The USPVL started with 4 teams in Rochester, Grand Rapids, Chicago and St Louis. That kept costs down, and made the idea seem practical. So maybe Rochester, Omaha, Kenosha and Napierville is one pod. Another pod could be Seattle, Tacoma, Portland and Vancouver. Columbus, Buffalo, Detroit/Windsor and Toronto. A pod of 4-6 teams in Texas. 4-6 more in California/Nevada. Let's find out who supports a team. Each of these pods may only support 1-2 teams in 10 years but by planting lots of seeds, it gives you a chance to see what can grow. C)Someone mentioned drawing the best players in the world. Someone else mentioned a draft. The best players in the world are expensive. A draft means you have to pay someone enough money to move and live in a city. The early days of most pro sports the athletes had day jobs. Let the athletes play where they live. Honestly, I'd like to see some of our larger clubs create semi-pro teams - what would a Northern Lights team look like with former players, Minnesota and Concordia alumns who live and work in the Twin Cities? I bet they could find 8-12 players that are worth watching. Same for Lincoln/Omaha. Austin Juniors/Texas alums and grad students. D) This supports the previous points, but thebasketballleague.net/ has 45 teams in 6 divisions of 6-9 teams. The players make $500-$5000 per month for 4 months. Major League Lacrosse paid players less than $10,000/ yr. Arena Football players start around $10,000 per season. E) There used to be an LXM Lacrosse Tour which had 2 teams play exhibitions around the country. I'd love to see Molten/Mikasa and Nike/Addidas or whoever have 16 players, who are either retired from the pro grind, or just graduated and haven't gone abroad yet, go on tour with the qualifiers or follow the AVP and maybe make a few other stops. They would play exhibition matches and build an audience for pro-volleyball. F) We do not have to recreate the WNBA in 3 years to do this. MLS still isn't profitable on the whole and that's been around for ages at this point. There just has to be economic activity, interest and profit potential, but Athletes United is the only group trying to move the needle. Where is the next group to try to push this forward?
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Post by basil on Aug 17, 2022 22:04:44 GMT -5
I'd say anywhere with a cluster of midmajor cities. TX strikes me first and foremost. An upper Midwest league would be intriguing pulling from IA,NE,SD,MN,ND,WI and maybe throw a team up in Winnipeg for fun. Being bussable and local is important I think. I like the idea of seeing branded buses on regional interstates, driving billboard in essence. A plane-league only creates distant between competing clubs and doesn't nurture any rivalry. Maybe that happens in time, but crawl before walk. I'm intrigued by the idea of a more focused league at the midwest indoor volleyball hotbeds I'm Californian so I'm inclined to reject the premise but I understand that starting small and growing from there is a good idea, and doing it in the midwest would be smart
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Post by bubbrubb on Aug 17, 2022 22:10:32 GMT -5
I'd say anywhere with a cluster of midmajor cities. TX strikes me first and foremost. An upper Midwest league would be intriguing pulling from IA,NE,SD,MN,ND,WI and maybe throw a team up in Winnipeg for fun. Being bussable and local is important I think. I like the idea of seeing branded buses on regional interstates, driving billboard in essence. A plane-league only creates distant between competing clubs and doesn't nurture any rivalry. Maybe that happens in time, but crawl before walk. I'm intrigued by the idea of a more focused league at the midwest indoor volleyball hotbeds I'm Californian so I'm inclined to reject the premise but I understand that starting small and growing from there is a good idea, and doing it in the midwest would be smart agreed. to be in Kenosha WI and see the Rockford team bus drive by on the interstate resonates a bit more than some distant fragmented connection. Keep it organic wherever possible. yes, Im a canuck by blood so thats how Winnipeg made in it in
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Post by tablealgebra on Aug 17, 2022 22:13:58 GMT -5
Fyi, There is a pro women's soccer league. They’ve had games broadcast on CBS. The wnt players are in the league. I had no idea. I depend on being a voracious reader to know these things and I’ve never seen a single article on wonen’s soccer. Just a huge case of ignorance on my part. Women's soccer is only just now getting covered by ESPN - I rely on subscriptions to The Athletic (and even moreso, The Equalizer soccer magazine) for my print coverage of that sport (though a writer at WaPo also does a nice job covering it). That sport is starting to take off ... but the NWSL (now on year 10) is the third iteration of a pro WoSo league in the US after the first two folded, a few teams in the NWSL folded (last one in 2018 I think) early on, and until recently they had a max salary of $50,000. National team players until last year had higher salaries which were paid by US Soccer in return for them staying in the league (which is part of the the reason the players brought a lawsuit against US Soccer). But at this point the NWSL looks very healthy, teams are getting valued at $40 million+ and salaries are rising. And unlike Europe, where wealthy men's teams are underwriting WoSo, many NWSL teams operate independently of any men's team. Anyway, the point is, I'd expect similar growing pains in a pro women's volleyball startup league. You'd have to be extremely frugal to start (rent arenas, low salaries, the 'bus league' is a good idea) especially since I doubt USAV could underwrite anything. That being said, I believe that an Omaha team could average 5-7K attendance to start and other larger but less volleyball-thirsty areas could get good attendance as well. If you prove sustainability at that low level, then the big investors come in and the league grows - but more likely the first iteration fails. An advantage, though, is that the demand for women's sports has never been higher. US vs England women's national team friendly at Wembley sold out in a week. And I think a lot of fans would be attracted by 'not just women playing a men's sport'. So maybe a startup league would do well after all.
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Post by bubbrubb on Aug 17, 2022 22:21:43 GMT -5
I had no idea. I depend on being a voracious reader to know these things and I’ve never seen a single article on wonen’s soccer. Just a huge case of ignorance on my part. Women's soccer is only just now getting covered by ESPN - I rely on subscriptions to The Athletic (and even moreso, The Equalizer soccer magazine) for my print coverage of that sport (though a writer at WaPo also does a nice job covering it). That sport is starting to take off ... but the NWSL (now on year 10) is the third iteration of a pro WoSo league in the US after the first two folded, a few teams in the NWSL folded (last one in 2018 I think) early on, and until recently they had a max salary of $50,000. National team players until last year had higher salaries which were paid by US Soccer in return for them staying in the league (which is part of the the reason the players brought a lawsuit against US Soccer). But at this point the NWSL looks very healthy, teams are getting valued at $40 million+ and salaries are rising. And unlike Europe, where wealthy men's teams are underwriting WoSo, many NWSL teams operate independently of any men's team. Anyway, the point is, I'd expect similar growing pains in a pro women's volleyball startup league. You'd have to be extremely frugal to start (rent arenas, low salaries, the 'bus league' is a good idea) especially since I doubt USAV could underwrite anything. That being said, I believe that an Omaha team could average 5-7K attendance to start and other larger but less volleyball-thirsty areas could get good attendance as well. If you prove sustainability at that low level, then the big investors come in and the league grows - but more likely the first iteration fails. An advantage, though, is that the demand for women's sports has never been higher. US vs England women's national team friendly at Wembley sold out in a week. And I think a lot of fans would be attracted by 'not just women playing a men's sport'. So maybe a startup league would do well after all. I think WoSo will awlays be competing against the Men to some degree. WVB is unique in that I dont think a MVB league will ever exist stateside to impede
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Post by chatchu-off moksri on Aug 17, 2022 22:30:46 GMT -5
I always thought it would be interesting of USAV or someone in the US invested money into a nearby pro league (like Puerto Rico) so they don't have to create their own from scratch. For example, this past season the Puerto Rico league had 5 teams (I think). What if USAV invested in like 3 more teams, and allowed for more US athletes in the league or something? Idk if that makes sense.
Obviously this isn't a comprehensive solution, but I'd be curious to see what could happen.
Unless we get lucky and some billionaire decides to invest in a pro women's league, I don't think the US will actually ever have a legit pro league. The best we'll probably have is AU, which is sad.
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Post by bubbrubb on Aug 17, 2022 22:41:04 GMT -5
I always thought it would be interesting of USAV or someone in the US invested money into a nearby pro league (like Puerto Rico) so they don't have to create their own from scratch. For example, this past season the Puerto Rico league had 5 teams (I think). What if USAV invested in like 3 more teams, and allowed for more US athletes in the league or something? Idk if that makes sense. Obviously this isn't a comprehensive solution, but I'd be curious to see what could happen. Unless we get lucky and some billionaire decides to invest in a pro women's league, I don't think the US will actually ever have a legit pro league. The best we'll probably have is AU, which is sad. thought about that too. Gate revenue potential would never be maximized though. Could get 2000 fans at $5 a ticket in PR, or you could have potential for 7,000 fans at $20 per ticket average in a place like Des Moines (WNBA charges more like $30 per ticket I recall seeing on the low-end). I dont think that is out of reach by any means. Big fish, smaller pond.
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Post by avid 2.0 on Aug 17, 2022 22:42:35 GMT -5
I dont think you're getting 7k in Des Moines.
That might be pushing what you could get in Omaha or Lincoln
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Post by bubbrubb on Aug 17, 2022 22:45:47 GMT -5
I dont think you're getting 7k in Des Moines. That might be pushing what you could get in Omaha or Lincoln even 3,000 at $20 ticket average would be far superior to beign capped in PR. Im saying the runway is clear to get to 7,000 if it so happens. Id expect a pro league to do more numbers than NCAA if compact and in a bus league format in a hotbed region such as upper MW, TX, etc.
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Post by vbnerd on Aug 17, 2022 22:48:25 GMT -5
The comments on USAV not helping... spot on. If they were willing to spend $2 to grow the game they wouldn't keep going back to Shreveport every chance they get.
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