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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2022 8:41:43 GMT -5
So basically, at the end of the day -- at least when comparing to soccer -- it's the total and complete lack of interest and success in men's (professional) volleyball that then provides no money to supplement the women's professional leagues.
But the interest is there in at least some of the top women's college teams. I guess that's what we've got, here.
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Post by bbg95 on Aug 18, 2022 8:45:41 GMT -5
I think a big part of it is that the USWNT has been on the national stage since the 1999 Women's World Cup Final. And they've been the most successful women's soccer country in the world (which a lot of Americans care about, given how sorry the men's program is). Plus, they get two major events (the Women's World Cup and the Summer Olympics) every four years. And soccer in general (including men) is a more popular sport than volleyball is. and they've been able to use the resources of US Soccer to the fullest. They also had the benefit of there not being top leagues anywhere else really at the time. There were top teams (Lyon, etc)... but never a good league... so staying home had benefits. (along with no one was shelling out 6-7 figures for the top players like they do in the Euro Volley leagues) Yeah. And the other major factor I forgot to mention is the media. They give the USWNT a lot of attention. Volleyball, not so much. Hopefully, that changes.
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Post by avid 2.0 on Aug 18, 2022 8:47:03 GMT -5
So basically, at the end of the day -- at least when comparing to soccer -- it's the total and complete lack of interest and success in men's (professional) volleyball that then provides no money to supplement the women's professional leagues. But the interest is there in at least some of the top women's college teams. I guess that's what we've got, here. Potentially. NWSL teams attached to MLS teams had a lot of success due to shared resources. But there are also independent teams that exist and thrive. Right now the biggest thing a pro league could lean on would be NCAA volleyball... but even then... most of NCAA volleyball isnt being exposed to the maximum. (looking at you SEC, ACC, and Big 12 and even the PAC). The Big 10 does a great job. But that's pretty par of course for ncaa volleyball (its the Big then everyone else)
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Post by bbg95 on Aug 18, 2022 8:51:32 GMT -5
even 3,000 at $20 ticket average would be far superior to beign capped in PR. Im saying the runway is clear to get to 7,000 if it so happens. Id expect a pro league to do more numbers than NCAA if compact and in a bus league format in a hotbed region such as upper MW, TX, etc. really? i expect the opposite. they cant/wont be able to match the resources of the NCAA. Most of the NCAA fans are not fans of volleyball, but fans of the school. NCAAVB exploits that to the fullest (which good on them)... but that wont relay to pro volleyball. even look at this board. there's like what, 15-20 of us regularly in the pro/NT threads while the rest just root for NCAA teams. (which is totally fine, im not knocking that) Yeah, I think some are underestimating how difficult it is to establish a new pro league in this country. Even men's soccer took multiple failed attempts before the MLS, and the MLS is not even close to the quality of the top leagues in Europe. I think the best things volleyball can do is continue to grow interest in the sport at the collegiate level and continue to perform well at the Olympics. Over enough time, hopefully, a pro league would be viable.
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Post by avid 2.0 on Aug 18, 2022 8:53:40 GMT -5
USAV had an incredible opportunity to take advantage of the women winning gold in Tokyo what did they do? they sold tshirts (iykyk volleyballmag.com/jamie-davis-usa-volleyball-070822/) they didnt capitalize on social media.... with the ncaa... anything. it was awful.
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Post by bbg95 on Aug 18, 2022 9:01:01 GMT -5
USAV had an incredible opportunity to take advantage of the women winning gold in Tokyo what did they do? they sold tshirts (iykyk volleyballmag.com/jamie-davis-usa-volleyball-070822/) they didnt capitalize on social media.... with the ncaa... anything. it was awful. Yeah, so I'm skeptical that even if USAV fully capitalized on the gold medal that it would make a true pro volleyball league viable. That said, you are right that they haven't done much. Everyone knew who Brandi Chastain was after the 1999 WWC. I heard almost nothing about volleyball after the Olympics were over.
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Post by avid 2.0 on Aug 18, 2022 9:01:56 GMT -5
USAV had an incredible opportunity to take advantage of the women winning gold in Tokyo what did they do? they sold tshirts (iykyk volleyballmag.com/jamie-davis-usa-volleyball-070822/) they didnt capitalize on social media.... with the ncaa... anything. it was awful. Yeah, so I'm skeptical that even if USAV fully capitalized on the gold medal that it would make a true pro volleyball league viable. That said, you are right that they haven't done much. Everyone knew who Brandi Chastain was after the 1999 WWC. I heard almost nothing about volleyball after the Olympics were over. oh sorry im not talking about a pro league, just the womens national team. they have so much reach... and did nothing
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Post by bbg95 on Aug 18, 2022 9:18:18 GMT -5
Yeah, so I'm skeptical that even if USAV fully capitalized on the gold medal that it would make a true pro volleyball league viable. That said, you are right that they haven't done much. Everyone knew who Brandi Chastain was after the 1999 WWC. I heard almost nothing about volleyball after the Olympics were over. oh sorry im not talking about a pro league, just the womens national team. they have so much reach... and did nothing Oh, I see. Yeah, the lack of followup promotion after the first-ever women's volleyball gold medal for the US was disappointing to say the least. Oh, man. I just read the full quotes from that interview you posted, and the one about having T-shirts ready to be sold is so unbelievably tone-deaf.
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Post by HandeBallerdın on Aug 18, 2022 9:20:27 GMT -5
Lets be honest the best way to start a pro league is to have pro teams, who join forces to form….a “league” (thats literally what the word means).
We have a couple semi pro teams popping up apparently.
Also am i the only one who thinks womens volleyball has the more sustainable potential because its popular independent of mens volleyball?
Womens football is just not a great product compared to mens football but it has the potential to be good and it is getting better. The successful USWNT of the past just outran and outmuscled teams from countries who put no emphasis on the womens game. Recently other countries have caught up with our 1970s english semipro tactics. So womens football is improving and could be on a path to self-sufficiency on its own.
Womens basketball is just not that great of a product and the wnba has been propped up by the nba for decades now, and probably always will be. Basketball is very much a sport of athleticism, height, and strength, so the gap in quality will always be very notiseable.
Womens volleyball is already self-sufficient in several countries and has been for decades. Its a great product, not just “women playing a sport you already watch men playing”. Its different from mens volleyball and arguably more compelling. It could also be here if enough interest is generated. The problems are the size, scope, and cost of travel in this country; and the American pro sports model.
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Post by bbg95 on Aug 18, 2022 9:28:57 GMT -5
Lets be honest the best way to start a pro league is to have pro teams, who join forces to form….a “league” (thats literally what the word means). We have a couple semi pro teams popping up apparently. Also am i the only one who thinks womens volleyball has the more sustainable potential because its popular independent of mens volleyball? Womens football is just not a great product compared to mens football but it has the potential to be good and it is getting better. The successful USWNT of the past just outran and outmuscled teams from countries who put no emphasis on the womens game. Recently other countries have caught up with our 1970s english semipro tactics. So womens football is improving and could be on a path to self-sufficiency on its own. Womens basketball is just not that great of a product and the wnba has been propped up by the nba for decades now, and probably always will be. Basketball is very much a sport of athleticism, height, and strength, so the gap in quality will always be very notiseable. Womens volleyball is already self-sufficient in several countries and has been for decades. Its a great product, not just “women playing a sport you already watch men playing”. Its different from mens volleyball and arguably more compelling. It could also be here if enough interest is generated. The problems are the size, scope, and cost of travel in this country; and the American pro sports model. That's plausible in theory, but in reality, it seems like having a popular men's counterpart is more valuable than not having one. Basketball is one of the better examples. The WNBA would probably not still exist without the NBA's support, and women's college basketball also benefits a lot from the popularity of men's college basketball. I think women's volleyball is a vastly superior sport to women's basketball, but it is what it is. Edit: Also, the American pro sports model isn't really the problem. We support the NFL, MLB, NBA and NHL (and MLS, I guess) just fine.
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Post by pavsec5row10 on Aug 18, 2022 9:43:50 GMT -5
I dont think you're getting 7k in Des Moines. That might be pushing what you could get in Omaha or Lincoln even 3,000 at $20 ticket average would be far superior to beign capped in PR. Im saying the runway is clear to get to 7,000 if it so happens. Id expect a pro league to do more numbers than NCAA if compact and in a bus league format in a hotbed region such as upper MW, TX, etc. I think the college teams would far outdraw any pro league teams for at least a decade. I'm not sure hard core Gophers or Badgers fans are going to suddenly become season ticket holders to a pro league. It might be a casual fan support for awhile, attending a game or two. I also don't get the bus fascination. Yes it would be cheaper, but these players are already used to flying to matches, so now you are expected to go to a bus league? Salaries to attract top players would also be a challenge.
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Post by HandeBallerdın on Aug 18, 2022 9:49:42 GMT -5
Lets be honest the best way to start a pro league is to have pro teams, who join forces to form….a “league” (thats literally what the word means). We have a couple semi pro teams popping up apparently. Also am i the only one who thinks womens volleyball has the more sustainable potential because its popular independent of mens volleyball? Womens football is just not a great product compared to mens football but it has the potential to be good and it is getting better. The successful USWNT of the past just outran and outmuscled teams from countries who put no emphasis on the womens game. Recently other countries have caught up with our 1970s english semipro tactics. So womens football is improving and could be on a path to self-sufficiency on its own. Womens basketball is just not that great of a product and the wnba has been propped up by the nba for decades now, and probably always will be. Basketball is very much a sport of athleticism, height, and strength, so the gap in quality will always be very notiseable. Womens volleyball is already self-sufficient in several countries and has been for decades. Its a great product, not just “women playing a sport you already watch men playing”. Its different from mens volleyball and arguably more compelling. It could also be here if enough interest is generated. The problems are the size, scope, and cost of travel in this country; and the American pro sports model. That's plausible in theory, but in reality, it seems like having a popular men's counterpart is more valuable than not having one. Basketball is one of the better examples. The WNBA would probably not still exist without the NBA's support, and women's college basketball also benefits a lot from the popularity of men's college basketball. I think women's volleyball is a vastly superior sport to women's basketball, but it is what it is. Edit: Also, the American pro sports model isn't really the problem. We support the NFL, MLB, NBA and NHL (and MLS, I guess) just fine. it is though because of the international competition. None of our big 4 leagues have any international competition, especially financially, so massive parity mechanisms and no relegation work. We would expect if one of our teams could compete with vakifbank than most of the others should at least compete with Ecza. If one MLS team with big support (like Seattle) wanted to go out and sign a team that rivalled Manchester City, they cant because of parity mechanisms. Theyre forced to remain relatively as bad as every other MLS team that can barely compete with the best Mexican teams. Thats my point.
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Post by vbnerd on Aug 18, 2022 9:52:56 GMT -5
Sorry if this was already discussed, didn't take the time to read the entire thread. When you consider the following: - I believe now, there are more youth (high school and down) girls playing volleyball than soccer, although both are quite high I'm thinking - I also believe (but haven't verified) the top say 20 (or whatever) DI schools in volleyball attendance easily beat the same in women's college soccer ....... then how can it be that there are relatively so many women's professional opportunities in this country in soccer?? When the media refers to "The US women's national team" without specifying a sport they are always talking about the soccer team. If they want to talk about volleyball or gymnastics they always name the sport. The women's world cup final (which always refers to soccer) in 2019 had an average viewership of over 80 million with over 250 million unique viewers. The FIVB World Championship final will be streamed online. The women's soccer team are celebrities. Ticker tape parades, magazine and cereal box covers, talk show interviews, etc. In common society, volleyball is that thing you do at picnics over the summer with a beer in one hand. That perception needs to change, and as has been pointed out several times, there isn't much going on in the US to change that.
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Post by bbg95 on Aug 18, 2022 9:58:36 GMT -5
That's plausible in theory, but in reality, it seems like having a popular men's counterpart is more valuable than not having one. Basketball is one of the better examples. The WNBA would probably not still exist without the NBA's support, and women's college basketball also benefits a lot from the popularity of men's college basketball. I think women's volleyball is a vastly superior sport to women's basketball, but it is what it is. Edit: Also, the American pro sports model isn't really the problem. We support the NFL, MLB, NBA and NHL (and MLS, I guess) just fine. it is though because of the international competition. None of our big 4 leagues have any international competition, especially financially, so massive parity mechanisms and no relegation work. We would expect if one of our teams could compete with vakifbank than most of the others should at least compete with Ecza. If one MLS team with big support (like Seattle) wanted to go out and sign a team that rivalled Manchester City, they cant because of parity mechanisms. Theyre forced to remain relatively as bad as every other MLS team that can barely compete with the best Mexican teams. Thats my point. Lol. No competition would imply that there aren't leagues in other parts of the world. That is not the case. I see you tried to sneak in "especially financially," as that indicates that there is competition from other parts of the world. It's just that none of those leagues come close to the popularity of the US ones. Also, this is another discussion, but salary caps are very healthy. The NFL is the most profitable league in the world and has had a hard cap for a long time. To take your example, it looks like the MLS salary cap is about $5 million. Manchester United's payroll is close to $300 million. There is not enough interest in domestic soccer in this country to come anywhere near that kind of payroll. And if someone did that, it would probably kill interest in the other MLS clubs who can't compete.
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Post by Murina on Aug 18, 2022 10:04:04 GMT -5
... I also don't get the bus fascination. Yes it would be cheaper, but these players are already used to flying to matches, so now you are expected to go to a bus league? Salaries to attract top players would also be a challenge. They already go from flying in the NCAA to bussing in most domestic leagues around the world.
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