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Post by avid 2.0 on Aug 17, 2022 22:52:23 GMT -5
I dont think you're getting 7k in Des Moines. That might be pushing what you could get in Omaha or Lincoln even 3,000 at $20 ticket average would be far superior to beign capped in PR. Im saying the runway is clear to get to 7,000 if it so happens. Id expect a pro league to do more numbers than NCAA if compact and in a bus league format in a hotbed region such as upper MW, TX, etc. really? i expect the opposite. they cant/wont be able to match the resources of the NCAA. Most of the NCAA fans are not fans of volleyball, but fans of the school. NCAAVB exploits that to the fullest (which good on them)... but that wont relay to pro volleyball. even look at this board. there's like what, 15-20 of us regularly in the pro/NT threads while the rest just root for NCAA teams. (which is totally fine, im not knocking that)
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Post by bbg95 on Aug 17, 2022 22:52:39 GMT -5
I had no idea. I depend on being a voracious reader to know these things and I’ve never seen a single article on wonen’s soccer. Just a huge case of ignorance on my part. Women's soccer is only just now getting covered by ESPN - I rely on subscriptions to The Athletic (and even moreso, The Equalizer soccer magazine) for my print coverage of that sport (though a writer at WaPo also does a nice job covering it). That sport is starting to take off ... but the NWSL (now on year 10) is the third iteration of a pro WoSo league in the US after the first two folded, a few teams in the NWSL folded (last one in 2018 I think) early on, and until recently they had a max salary of $50,000. National team players until last year had higher salaries which were paid by US Soccer in return for them staying in the league (which is part of the the reason the players brought a lawsuit against US Soccer). But at this point the NWSL looks very healthy, teams are getting valued at $40 million+ and salaries are rising. And unlike Europe, where wealthy men's teams are underwriting WoSo, many NWSL teams operate independently of any men's team. Anyway, the point is, I'd expect similar growing pains in a pro women's volleyball startup league. You'd have to be extremely frugal to start (rent arenas, low salaries, the 'bus league' is a good idea) especially since I doubt USAV could underwrite anything. That being said, I believe that an Omaha team could average 5-7K attendance to start and other larger but less volleyball-thirsty areas could get good attendance as well. If you prove sustainability at that low level, then the big investors come in and the league grows - but more likely the first iteration fails. An advantage, though, is that the demand for women's sports has never been higher. US vs England women's national team friendly at Wembley sold out in a week. And I think a lot of fans would be attracted by 'not just women playing a men's sport'. So maybe a startup league would do well after all. I would guess that there is a lot more interest in women's soccer in Europe than women's volleyball in the US. And as you said, a lot of the big men's clubs are operating women's teams as well. Volleyball doesn't have that kind of advantage, since men's volleyball is barely a blip on the radar.
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Post by bbg95 on Aug 17, 2022 22:57:22 GMT -5
I'd say anywhere with a cluster of midmajor cities. TX strikes me first and foremost. An upper Midwest league would be intriguing pulling from IA,NE,SD,MN,ND,WI and maybe throw a team up in Winnipeg for fun. Being bussable and local is important I think. I like the idea of seeing branded buses on regional interstates, driving billboard in essence. A plane-league only creates distant between competing clubs and doesn't nurture any rivalry. Maybe that happens in time, but crawl before walk. I'm intrigued by the idea of a more focused league at the midwest indoor volleyball hotbeds I'm Californian so I'm inclined to reject the premise but I understand that starting small and growing from there is a good idea, and doing it in the midwest would be smart It was a long time ago, but the NHL started out as a regional league with its Original Six in Toronto, Montreal, New York, Chicago, Detroit and Boston. Edit: myhouse911 points out below that this isn't quite accurate, as the NHL existed before the Original Six era, and that is true. However, the NHL still started out as a regional league, as all the original teams (including the ones that folded) were in the same general part of the country.
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Post by bubbrubb on Aug 17, 2022 23:20:05 GMT -5
even 3,000 at $20 ticket average would be far superior to beign capped in PR. Im saying the runway is clear to get to 7,000 if it so happens. Id expect a pro league to do more numbers than NCAA if compact and in a bus league format in a hotbed region such as upper MW, TX, etc. really? i expect the opposite. they cant/wont be able to match the resources of the NCAA. Most of the NCAA fans are not fans of volleyball, but fans of the school. NCAAVB exploits that to the fullest (which good on them)... but that wont relay to pro volleyball. even look at this board. there's like what, 15-20 of us regularly in the pro/NT threads while the rest just root for NCAA teams. (which is totally fine, im not knocking that) just looking at attendance for other sports. Junior hockey (USHL in upper midwest) gets 2000-3000+ and thats for 16-20yr old boys that are nowhere close to the best in the world. Tickets are roughly $20. I prefer the european model of ads on jerseys and ads on the court like the Italian League. So my interpretation of what a pro league looks like may be different.
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Post by baytree on Aug 18, 2022 0:24:59 GMT -5
really? i expect the opposite. they cant/wont be able to match the resources of the NCAA. Most of the NCAA fans are not fans of volleyball, but fans of the school. NCAAVB exploits that to the fullest (which good on them)... but that wont relay to pro volleyball. even look at this board. there's like what, 15-20 of us regularly in the pro/NT threads while the rest just root for NCAA teams. (which is totally fine, im not knocking that) just looking at attendance for other sports. Junior hockey (USHL in upper midwest) gets 2000-3000+ and thats for 16-20yr old boys that are nowhere close to the best in the world. Tickets are roughly $20. I prefer the european model of ads on jerseys and ads on the court like the Italian League. So my interpretation of what a pro league looks like may be different. For NCAA, Nebraska gets 8000+. Wisconsin gets 7000+. Minnesota gets around 5,500. I doubt you get that. Michigan State and Illinois average around 3000. Purdue, Michigan, UNI, and Iowa State average around 2000. You might be able to get that but NCAA volleyball is heavily subsidized by NCAA football money and, as avid pointed out, draws mainly bc ppl root for a university's teams, not bc they love volleyball.
Yes, they like volleyball, otherwise they'd watch their uni's water polo or soccer or field hockey teams instead of vb. But most wouldn't watch pro volleyball unless maybe one of their school's alums was playing.
You can check out how much volleyball costs each school here:
(You have to go to the school, then student life, then sports) Even at most schools where vb is popular (like Wisconsin), volleyball loses a lot of money each year.
FWIW, the public school amounts are probably more accurate than the amounts for private schools bc public schools are required to give the public (who pays for the unis) that info.
I think ads would be a good idea.
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Post by myhouse911 on Aug 18, 2022 1:48:58 GMT -5
I'm intrigued by the idea of a more focused league at the midwest indoor volleyball hotbeds I'm Californian so I'm inclined to reject the premise but I understand that starting small and growing from there is a good idea, and doing it in the midwest would be smart It was a long time ago, but the NHL started out as a regional league with its Original Six in Toronto, Montreal, New York, Chicago, Detroit and Boston. Except that's incorrect as the NHL was operating for many years prior to the 1942-43 season. The original six is simply that there were only those six teams in the league from 1942-1967.
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Post by vbfamily on Aug 18, 2022 2:01:25 GMT -5
what would a Northern Lights team look like with former players, Minnesota and Concordia alumns who live and work in the Twin Cities? I bet they could find 8-12 players that are worth watching. Same for Lincoln/Omaha. Austin Juniors/Texas alums and grad students. This is somewhat what LOVB Could do with the clubs they have acquired. Although no Dallas Club… ___________________ Midwest Division) (4) Madison (Madtown), Green Bay (One Wisconsin), Rockford (VC United), Kansas City (KC Power) East/SE Division: (4) Columbus (Elite Volley), Louisville (Union), Chattanooga (A5), Atlanta (A5) West Division (3) 4? Phoenix (Aspire), Long Beach (LB Mizuno), LA (SCVC), Other? (N Cal-No club) Couldn’t do Hawaii…cost. Texas Division (3-4?) Austin (Roots/Silver Beach), Houston (H-Skyline), Dallas (No club?). Other? (San Antonio? No club) Would be expensive to house players but could do local. For example, recent Phx hometown Pros/Grads: Not that they live in AZ currently or would be interested with what some are getting overseas, but fun to think about. OH: Khalia Lanier, Madi (Kingdon) Rishel MB: Lauren Stivrins, Preslie Anderson/Rachael Kramer S: Katie Oleksak OPP: Willow Johnson L: Amanda Benson I’d go support that team! 😊 Could play inter division 4x then three long road trips to play each of the teams in each division on the road. (Home/away) So if 16, then 24 vs other divisions and 12 your division. 36 games? OK, dreaming, time to wake up!
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Post by tablealgebra on Aug 18, 2022 2:30:35 GMT -5
Women's soccer is only just now getting covered by ESPN - I rely on subscriptions to The Athletic (and even moreso, The Equalizer soccer magazine) for my print coverage of that sport (though a writer at WaPo also does a nice job covering it). That sport is starting to take off ... but the NWSL (now on year 10) is the third iteration of a pro WoSo league in the US after the first two folded, a few teams in the NWSL folded (last one in 2018 I think) early on, and until recently they had a max salary of $50,000. National team players until last year had higher salaries which were paid by US Soccer in return for them staying in the league (which is part of the the reason the players brought a lawsuit against US Soccer). But at this point the NWSL looks very healthy, teams are getting valued at $40 million+ and salaries are rising. And unlike Europe, where wealthy men's teams are underwriting WoSo, many NWSL teams operate independently of any men's team. Anyway, the point is, I'd expect similar growing pains in a pro women's volleyball startup league. You'd have to be extremely frugal to start (rent arenas, low salaries, the 'bus league' is a good idea) especially since I doubt USAV could underwrite anything. That being said, I believe that an Omaha team could average 5-7K attendance to start and other larger but less volleyball-thirsty areas could get good attendance as well. If you prove sustainability at that low level, then the big investors come in and the league grows - but more likely the first iteration fails. An advantage, though, is that the demand for women's sports has never been higher. US vs England women's national team friendly at Wembley sold out in a week. And I think a lot of fans would be attracted by 'not just women playing a men's sport'. So maybe a startup league would do well after all. I would guess that there is a lot more interest in women's soccer in Europe than women's volleyball in the US. And as you said, a lot of the big men's clubs are operating women's teams as well. Volleyball doesn't have that kind of advantage, since men's volleyball is barely a blip on the radar. The best average attendance numbers for WoSo have been in the US, but Europe has put on a couple "big events" this year and gotten huge attendance numbers for them. The Wembley sellout for the US friendly was spurred on by the England soccer women winning the Euros
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Post by bbg95 on Aug 18, 2022 8:18:31 GMT -5
It was a long time ago, but the NHL started out as a regional league with its Original Six in Toronto, Montreal, New York, Chicago, Detroit and Boston. Except that's incorrect as the NHL was operating for many years prior to the 1942-43 season. The original six is simply that there were only those six teams in the league from 1942-1967. You are right. I thought 1942 seemed rather late for the NHL, but I didn't look that closely into it. Edit: Okay, you're right, but my original point is still true. Here's what the original NHL looked like per Wikipedia. As you can see, it's still regional.
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Post by bbg95 on Aug 18, 2022 8:23:55 GMT -5
I would guess that there is a lot more interest in women's soccer in Europe than women's volleyball in the US. And as you said, a lot of the big men's clubs are operating women's teams as well. Volleyball doesn't have that kind of advantage, since men's volleyball is barely a blip on the radar. The best average attendance numbers for WoSo have been in the US, but Europe has put on a couple "big events" this year and gotten huge attendance numbers for them. The Wembley sellout for the US friendly was spurred on by the England soccer women winning the Euros Sure, but my point is that soccer is absolutely massive in Europe, so there is a lot of potential for interest in women's soccer there. I would say the average attendance being lower than the US is a bit surprising, but many of the men's powers didn't care about their women's programs until very recently. I will admit that the NWSL attendance numbers are better than I would have guessed. Does the LA team really get over 18,000 fans per match? If so, good for them.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2022 8:30:56 GMT -5
Sorry if this was already discussed, didn't take the time to read the entire thread.
When you consider the following: - I believe now, there are more youth (high school and down) girls playing volleyball than soccer, although both are quite high I'm thinking - I also believe (but haven't verified) the top say 20 (or whatever) DI schools in volleyball attendance easily beat the same in women's college soccer
.......
then how can it be that there are relatively so many women's professional opportunities in this country in soccer??
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Post by bbg95 on Aug 18, 2022 8:35:44 GMT -5
Sorry if this was already discussed, didn't take the time to read the entire thread. When you consider the following: - I believe now, there are more youth (high school and down) girls playing volleyball than soccer, although both are quite high I'm thinking - I also believe (but haven't verified) the top say 20 (or whatever) DI schools in volleyball attendance easily beat the same in women's college soccer ....... then how can it be that there are relatively so many women's professional opportunities in this country in soccer?? I think a big part of it is that the USWNT has been on the national stage since the 1999 Women's World Cup Final. And they've been the most successful women's soccer country in the world (which a lot of Americans care about, given how relatively uncompetive the men's program is). Plus, they get two major events (the Women's World Cup and the Summer Olympics) every four years. And soccer in general (including men) is a more popular sport than volleyball is.
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Post by avid 2.0 on Aug 18, 2022 8:37:16 GMT -5
Sorry if this was already discussed, didn't take the time to read the entire thread. When you consider the following: - I believe now, there are more youth (high school and down) girls playing volleyball than soccer, although both are quite high I'm thinking - I also believe (but haven't verified) the top say 20 (or whatever) DI schools in volleyball attendance easily beat the same in women's college soccer ....... then how can it be that there are relatively so many women's professional opportunities in this country in soccer?? I think a big part of it is that the USWNT has been on the national stage since the 1999 Women's World Cup Final. And they've been the most successful women's soccer country in the world (which a lot of Americans care about, given how sorry the men's program is). Plus, they get two major events (the Women's World Cup and the Summer Olympics) every four years. And soccer in general (including men) is a more popular sport than volleyball is. and they've been able to use the resources of US Soccer to the fullest. They also had the benefit of there not being top leagues anywhere else really at the time. There were top teams (Lyon, etc)... but never a good league... so staying home had benefits. (along with no one was shelling out 6-7 figures for the top players like they do in the Euro Volley leagues)
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Post by Deleted on Aug 18, 2022 8:38:37 GMT -5
Sure. But to have nothing?? In Minnesota, they just started up a women's semi-professional team in a new league en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USL_W_LeagueOur team was one of the exceptions in how well the games were attended. I went to the championship game here, which sold out at 6500 (was a great time as well). But our coach was commenting in the paper before the game that some of the venues they went to, would literally have 10 people in the stands. And yet, the league is there. Volleyball .... nothing?
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Post by avid 2.0 on Aug 18, 2022 8:40:18 GMT -5
Sure. But to have nothing?? In Minnesota, they just started up a women's semi-professional team in a new league en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USL_W_LeagueOur team was one of the exceptions in how well the games were attended. I went to the championship game here, which sold out at 6500 (was a great time as well). But our coach was commenting in the paper before the game that some of the venues they went to, would literally have 10 people in the stands. And yet, the league is there. Volleyball .... nothing? again, goes back to my point. USAV doesnt care. If you dont have the support of the federation, nothings going to happen
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