|
|
Post by Winbabywin on Apr 7, 2021 14:46:40 GMT -5
You make it sound like I want an either/or situation. Obviously they need sponsors and people attending their events, and spending money; but that's how it is NOW, and it ain't workin!! At least not as good as it could be, with increased revenue. I mean, if they get $100k extra every year just from grass roots, is that peanuts? You're gonna dismiss that?
And the majority of tourneys now, both AVP and grass roots, are not held on actual beaches, so coinciding juniors tournaments aren't gonna be the norm. Creating a fan, just so they can spend $200 a year at an event, isn't necessarily the best singular strategy.
|
|
|
|
Post by JB Southpaw on Apr 7, 2021 15:50:20 GMT -5
You make it sound like I want an either/or situation. Obviously they need sponsors and people attending their events, and spending money; but that's how it is NOW, and it ain't workin!! At least not as good as it could be, with increased revenue. I mean, if they get $100k extra every year just from grass roots, is that peanuts? You're gonna dismiss that? And the majority of tourneys now, both AVP and grass roots, are not held on actual beaches, so coinciding juniors tournaments aren't gonna be the norm. Creating a fan, just so they can spend $200 a year at an event, isn't necessarily the best singular strategy. You can't the $$ away from the tournament directors. There isn't a ton there. $200 a year at an event times 100 per event? If you put 100 kids per tournament in the stands, then add parents..... Not only do you get their direct dollars, but your stats look better to sponsors. |
|
|
|
Post by guest2 on Apr 7, 2021 16:16:50 GMT -5
I'm a little confused by the conversation. What does the AVP do for these events that would convince the directors to pass all this money on?
|
|
|
|
Post by beavis on Apr 7, 2021 16:45:37 GMT -5
I wonder with the repositioning of AVPNext and AVPNext Gold, could the AVP get rid of the Qualifiers? or greatly reduce them? You now have these fringe MD players traveling the country playing these tournaments, and getting points. Would anyone be a surprise team outside of the AVPAmerica points structure? Could the AVP got to the FIVB pool format to add more teams? Friday Pool play, Sat & Sunday Single elim? I'd worry about a system that requires teams to travel to all these events and spend two days mostly playing on-competitive matches to accumulate points. The AVPNext system has resulted in some pretty outrageous teams getting a ton of points, although that seems to be happening less now. FIVB format is garbage. I'd rather see more courts, faster play, reduced fields, any one of many other formats before we get into a format that promotes strategic losing. (FIVB's current pool play is better than their old version but still stinks). Its funny how we all bring such different perspectives to these issues! I personally really like the FIVB format for a variety of reasons. When we travelled to Chetumal, for example, it was awesome to be able to watch 5 days of volleyball. It was also really interesting to watch so many international teams, in person, whom we would not normally get the chance to ever see in a normal AVP summer. There is just something special about seeing the short Japanese team giving it their all, watching from only 25 feet away, and whether they make it to the main draw or not, gaining a truly unique appreciation for their work ethic, their devotion to the sport, and their intensity and effort. As a result, I would love it if the AVP would adopt a lengthier format, especially if they have to do just as much set-up and prep work for a 5 day event as they do for a 3 day event. Any additional opportunities to increase the fan base by offering more days of play is, in my mind, a good thing. Many of us here in the Midwest plan our Labor Day weekend around the Chicago AVP, and not having on-site qualifiers, or having smaller main draws within an inherently shorter time span, would suck for fans who attend in person. In addition, I think the AVP Next program is a really thoughtful way to try and develop both more fan and more player participation over the long-term. Kudos to Donald and company for actually reaching out and partnering with the local, grassroots volleyball organizations and communities to actually think about where beach volleyball could be in 10 years. A perfect example was last year's Waupaca Boatride. Even though the weather sucked (but finally turned perfect for the Finals), the idea of also having an AVP Next event during an iconic, longstanding grass tournament was really smart. Not only do the U.S. men need this pipeline for development (unlike the women who have college beach), but you already have a huge, captive audience who are on site. Maybe we are the exception, but we love watching the teams we have never heard of but who might someday make some noise, so less tournaments, with smaller main draws, etc., is preferable to watching the same 12 teams over and over again. Just some random thoughts! |
|
|
|
Post by guest2 on Apr 7, 2021 17:28:48 GMT -5
I'd worry about a system that requires teams to travel to all these events and spend two days mostly playing on-competitive matches to accumulate points. The AVPNext system has resulted in some pretty outrageous teams getting a ton of points, although that seems to be happening less now. FIVB format is garbage. I'd rather see more courts, faster play, reduced fields, any one of many other formats before we get into a format that promotes strategic losing. (FIVB's current pool play is better than their old version but still stinks). Its funny how we all bring such different perspectives to these issues! I personally really like the FIVB format for a variety of reasons. When we travelled to Chetumal, for example, it was awesome to be able to watch 5 days of volleyball. It was also really interesting to watch so many international teams, in person, whom we would not normally get the chance to ever see in a normal AVP summer. There is just something special about seeing the short Japanese team giving it their all from 25 feet away, and whether they ,make it to the main draw or now, you gain a truly unique appreciation for their work ethic, their devotion to the sport, and their intensity and effort. As a result, I would love it if the AVP would adopt a lengthier format, especially if they have to do just as much set-up and prep work for a 5 day event as they do for a 3 day event. Any additional opportunities to increase the fan base by offering more days of play is, in my mind, a good thing. Many of us here in the Midwest plan our Labor Day weekend around the Chicago AVP, and not having on-site qualifiers, or having smaller main draws within an inherently shorter time span, would suck for fans who attend in person. In addition, I think the AVP Next program is a really thoughtful way to try and develop both more fan and more player participation over the long-term. Kudos to Donald and company for actually reaching out and partnering with the local, grassroots volleyball organizations and communities to actually think about where beach volleyball could be in 10 years. A perfect example was last year's Waupaca Boatride. Even though the weather sucked (but finally turned perfect for the Finals), the idea of also having an AVP Next event during an iconic, longstanding grass tournament was really smart. Not only do the U.S. men need this pipeline for development (unlike the women who have college beach), but you already have a huge, captive audience who are on site. Maybe we are the exception, but we love watching the teams we have never heard of but who might someday make some noise, so less tournaments, with smaller main draws, etc., is preferable to watching the same 12 teams over and over again. Just some random thoughts! I also like the strategy of pairing with existing events, but the AVP didn't come up with the idea of having a sand doubles tournament at Waupaca. It had been there for a long time and the AVP simply put their logo on it. (Billy K, who won the event you saw, also won in 2013). Doing so was a good idea, just as it was when the old AVP did it wit various high profile regional events years ago. With regards to the FIVB, I agree on the appeal of seeing different teams that you may not always get to on the FIVB but that isn't a function of a 5 day draw and there is no reason they couldn't all play in 2.5 or 3 but the third being split between Thursday and Friday nights when fans can actually attend. Wednesday/Thursday/Friday morning matches are only good for the very limited number of fans that can attend - usually less than 10 per match with many matches having no fans watching. In other words its good for you and maybe 6 other fans - including me - and bad for everyone else. I am not sure how holding matches no one watches will generate new fans. The same number of teams could be accommodated on Th/Fr nights + the two weekend days with very little problem and those time slots could be advertised, the night matches would be an attraction and you would never have elite fan-drawing teams being eliminated at 1 pm on Friday in front of 7 fans, 6 of whom are other FIVB players. Take the Doha event for example. The most famous BVB player in the world played a grudge match against her ex-teammate. When was that match played? 5 pm on a Tuesday. How does that make sense from a fan service perspective? Covid made this different but the same thing would have happened at a normal event. Did anyone advertise that match? Promote based on it? I also agree the US men need a pipeline, but what I am skeptical of is whether having a series of events held all over the country, at which most teams won't make any or much money after expenses is the best way to do it. Also I dont think the primary goal of the AVPNext is to build said pipeline and if it is, something more purpose built would likely be better suited. I remember either the AVP or WPVA doing some direct recruiting of players just out of college and then offering them training and some sort of support. I think Jen Meredith was in that group, maybe Carrie Poppinga also? (Could be remembering wrong). I think it was sort of half-assed but something like that seems more likely to generate the next crop of high level US players than just putting money out there to be won by up and coming US players like Piotr Marciniak, Ricardo Santos and the Serbian guy? |
|
|
|
Post by JB Southpaw on Apr 8, 2021 10:25:54 GMT -5
Its funny how we all bring such different perspectives to these issues! I personally really like the FIVB format for a variety of reasons. When we travelled to Chetumal, for example, it was awesome to be able to watch 5 days of volleyball. It was also really interesting to watch so many international teams, in person, whom we would not normally get the chance to ever see in a normal AVP summer. There is just something special about seeing the short Japanese team giving it their all from 25 feet away, and whether they ,make it to the main draw or now, you gain a truly unique appreciation for their work ethic, their devotion to the sport, and their intensity and effort. As a result, I would love it if the AVP would adopt a lengthier format, especially if they have to do just as much set-up and prep work for a 5 day event as they do for a 3 day event. Any additional opportunities to increase the fan base by offering more days of play is, in my mind, a good thing. Many of us here in the Midwest plan our Labor Day weekend around the Chicago AVP, and not having on-site qualifiers, or having smaller main draws within an inherently shorter time span, would suck for fans who attend in person. In addition, I think the AVP Next program is a really thoughtful way to try and develop both more fan and more player participation over the long-term. Kudos to Donald and company for actually reaching out and partnering with the local, grassroots volleyball organizations and communities to actually think about where beach volleyball could be in 10 years. A perfect example was last year's Waupaca Boatride. Even though the weather sucked (but finally turned perfect for the Finals), the idea of also having an AVP Next event during an iconic, longstanding grass tournament was really smart. Not only do the U.S. men need this pipeline for development (unlike the women who have college beach), but you already have a huge, captive audience who are on site. Maybe we are the exception, but we love watching the teams we have never heard of but who might someday make some noise, so less tournaments, with smaller main draws, etc., is preferable to watching the same 12 teams over and over again. Just some random thoughts! I also like the strategy of pairing with existing events, but the AVP didn't come up with the idea of having a sand doubles tournament at Waupaca. It had been there for a long time and the AVP simply put their logo on it. (Billy K, who won the event you saw, also won in 2013). Doing so was a good idea, just as it was when the old AVP did it wit various high profile regional events years ago. With regards to the FIVB, I agree on the appeal of seeing different teams that you may not always get to on the FIVB but that isn't a function of a 5 day draw and there is no reason they couldn't all play in 2.5 or 3 but the third being split between Thursday and Friday nights when fans can actually attend. Wednesday/Thursday/Friday morning matches are only good for the very limited number of fans that can attend - usually less than 10 per match with many matches having no fans watching. In other words its good for you and maybe 6 other fans - including me - and bad for everyone else. I am not sure how holding matches no one watches will generate new fans. The same number of teams could be accommodated on Th/Fr nights + the two weekend days with very little problem and those time slots could be advertised, the night matches would be an attraction and you would never have elite fan-drawing teams being eliminated at 1 pm on Friday in front of 7 fans, 6 of whom are other FIVB players. Take the Doha event for example. The most famous BVB player in the world played a grudge match against her ex-teammate. When was that match played? 5 pm on a Tuesday. How does that make sense from a fan service perspective? Covid made this different but the same thing would have happened at a normal event. Did anyone advertise that match? Promote based on it? I also agree the US men need a pipeline, but what I am skeptical of is whether having a series of events held all over the country, at which most teams won't make any or much money after expenses is the best way to do it. Also I dont think the primary goal of the AVPNext is to build said pipeline and if it is, something more purpose built would likely be better suited. I remember either the AVP or WPVA doing some direct recruiting of players just out of college and then offering them training and some sort of support. I think Jen Meredith was in that group, maybe Carrie Poppinga also? (Could be remembering wrong). I think it was sort of half-assed but something like that seems more likely to generate the next crop of high level US players than just putting money out there to be won by up and coming US players like Piotr Marciniak, Ricardo Santos and the Serbian guy? This statement takes me down a rabbit hole I don't want to go down right now. But, I think it is possible |
|
|
|
Post by JB Southpaw on Apr 8, 2021 10:26:32 GMT -5
I also like the strategy of pairing with existing events, but the AVP didn't come up with the idea of having a sand doubles tournament at Waupaca. It had been there for a long time and the AVP simply put their logo on it. (Billy K, who won the event you saw, also won in 2013). Doing so was a good idea, just as it was when the old AVP did it wit various high profile regional events years ago. With regards to the FIVB, I agree on the appeal of seeing different teams that you may not always get to on the FIVB but that isn't a function of a 5 day draw and there is no reason they couldn't all play in 2.5 or 3 but the third being split between Thursday and Friday nights when fans can actually attend. Wednesday/Thursday/Friday morning matches are only good for the very limited number of fans that can attend - usually less than 10 per match with many matches having no fans watching. In other words its good for you and maybe 6 other fans - including me - and bad for everyone else. I am not sure how holding matches no one watches will generate new fans. The same number of teams could be accommodated on Th/Fr nights + the two weekend days with very little problem and those time slots could be advertised, the night matches would be an attraction and you would never have elite fan-drawing teams being eliminated at 1 pm on Friday in front of 7 fans, 6 of whom are other FIVB players. Take the Doha event for example. The most famous BVB player in the world played a grudge match against her ex-teammate. When was that match played? 5 pm on a Tuesday. How does that make sense from a fan service perspective? Covid made this different but the same thing would have happened at a normal event. Did anyone advertise that match? Promote based on it? I also agree the US men need a pipeline, but what I am skeptical of is whether having a series of events held all over the country, at which most teams won't make any or much money after expenses is the best way to do it. Also I dont think the primary goal of the AVPNext is to build said pipeline and if it is, something more purpose built would likely be better suited. I remember either the AVP or WPVA doing some direct recruiting of players just out of college and then offering them training and some sort of support. I think Jen Meredith was in that group, maybe Carrie Poppinga also? (Could be remembering wrong). I think it was sort of half-assed but something like that seems more likely to generate the next crop of high level US players than just putting money out there to be won by up and coming US players like Piotr Marciniak, Ricardo Santos and the Serbian guy? This statement takes me down a rabbit hole I don't want to go down right now. But, I think it is possible I wish I could find the AVPNEXT schedule for 2019 and 2020, it had quite a few dates. |
|
|
|
Post by JB Southpaw on Apr 27, 2021 9:50:23 GMT -5
a bit surprised no AVP schedule yet...
At least 1 or 2 events.
|
|
|
|
Post by butteryhands on Apr 27, 2021 10:48:28 GMT -5
a bit surprised no AVP schedule yet... At least 1 or 2 events. The rumor is that whatever schedule does eventually come out will be all events that occur after the Olympics and likely a similar setting as last year. But you probably knew all of that already. I hope at least the events feature a larger number of teams. It certainly isn't a good sign that there isn't any formal announcement about main draw events. |
|
|
|
Post by stevieofmb on Apr 27, 2021 11:47:56 GMT -5
a bit surprised no AVP schedule yet... At least 1 or 2 events. A friend that works with the city of Manhattan Beach on beach volleyball related matters told me about the possibility of a Manhattan Open during the last part of September, probably Sept 23-26. |
|
|
|
Post by guest2 on Apr 27, 2021 16:04:52 GMT -5
a bit surprised no AVP schedule yet... At least 1 or 2 events. The rumor is that whatever schedule does eventually come out will be all events that occur after the Olympics and likely a similar setting as last year. But you probably knew all of that already. I hope at least the events feature a larger number of teams. It certainly isn't a good sign that there isn't any formal announcement about main draw events. Interesting. So we get another example of the post-Olympics bounce not really mattering much? I guess its more or less what the AVP has to do, but unless the ATeam goes deep into this event, which is probably likely, hard to see the Olympics doing the AVP much good. Maybe Phil/Nick and Jake play out the year, so at least something there. Donald should invite Kerri back for a quick retirement fete if she is the team that qualifies. Good for all parties, will attract a lot of attention to the AVP |
|
|
|
Post by JB Southpaw on Apr 27, 2021 16:11:23 GMT -5
The rumor is that whatever schedule does eventually come out will be all events that occur after the Olympics and likely a similar setting as last year. But you probably knew all of that already. I hope at least the events feature a larger number of teams. It certainly isn't a good sign that there isn't any formal announcement about main draw events. Interesting. So we get another example of the post-Olympics bounce not really mattering much? I guess its more or less what the AVP has to do, but unless the ATeam goes deep into this event, which is probably likely, hard to see the Olympics doing the AVP much good. Maybe Phil/Nick and Jake play out the year, so at least something there. Donald should invite Kerri back for a quick retirement fete if she is the team that qualifies. Good for all parties, will attract a lot of attention to the AVP Don't really seeing a lot of these top players playing AVP after the Olympics. Alix April Jake Phil Nick Can't see them really bothering, unless they are getting appearance fees. They'll be coming off being sequestered in Tokyo. |
|
|
|
Post by guest2 on Apr 27, 2021 16:35:07 GMT -5
Interesting. So we get another example of the post-Olympics bounce not really mattering much? I guess its more or less what the AVP has to do, but unless the ATeam goes deep into this event, which is probably likely, hard to see the Olympics doing the AVP much good. Maybe Phil/Nick and Jake play out the year, so at least something there. Donald should invite Kerri back for a quick retirement fete if she is the team that qualifies. Good for all parties, will attract a lot of attention to the AVP Don't really seeing a lot of these top players playing AVP after the Olympics. Alix April Jake Phil Nick Can't see them really bothering, unless they are getting appearance fees. They'll be coming off being sequestered in Tokyo. I feel like you are intentionally triggering me now. Certainly the answer to WWSD is often, "hold out for an appearance fee and if you don't get it, don't play" |
|
|
|
Post by pepperclove on Apr 27, 2021 18:13:06 GMT -5
I don't know - I think those athletes play. AVP events seem to be relatively fun - and relatively easy money - for them. After Rio, they all played, and April even picked up a random partner (a young Kelly Reeves, if I remember right) when Kerri had her dispute with the AVP. Phil and Nick seem like the least likely to play, and they also might play but not take it seriously (see: split-blocking for an entire tournament), but I imagine they would want to finish out the season rather than just abruptly retire after Tokyo. It would also be a bit of a retirement tour for Jake and anyone else who publicly declares that they're done after this year.
|
|
|
|
Post by pepperclove on Apr 27, 2021 18:43:05 GMT -5
Adding to my thoughts (is it bad form to reply to yourself?), if the tournaments are all or mostly in Southern California, so most of the athletes don't have to travel, that also increases the odds that they play. It also helps if COVID restrictions are significantly reduced or over, which (fingers crossed) seems in reach in California right now, where our COVID rates are now the lowest in the country and vaccinations continue to pick up steam.
The players do care about tournaments other than the Olympics, even if the Olympics takes on an outsized role. Jake, for example, talked about how much he wants to get his name on the pier along with Taylor, so I can't seem him skipping out on a last chance to play Manhattan. And most if not all of these players love competing. I think even Phil, who clearly hates volleyball now, still enjoys competing.
|
|
